Welcome to Farm Sanctuary's first live sanctuary speaker series. My name is Nzinga Young, and I'm the Senior Manager of Events and Experience here at Farm Sanctuary. It's my pleasure to bring you Barbara King and Jeff VanderMeer as our guests for today's discussion of Animals' Best Friends-- Putting Compassion to Work for Animals in Captivity and in the Wild.


As we know, Barbara King is Emerita Professor of Anthropology at William and Mary, a freelance science writer and public speaker, the author of seven books, including the latest-- Animals' Best Friends. Barbara focuses on animal emotion and cognition, the ethics of our relationship with animals, and the evolutionary history of language, culture, and religion. Barbara will be in conversation with New York Times best selling author Jeff VanderMeer. His novels include Dead Astronauts, Borne, and The Southern Reach Trilogy-- the first volume of which, Annihilation, won the Nebula Award and the Shirley Jackson Award-- and it was adapted into a movie by Alex Garland. Jeff speaks and writes frequently about issues related to climate change as well as urban rewilding.


Before we jump into their conversation, here's a brief overview of Animals' Best Friends. As people come to understand more about animals in our lives, we feel a growing compassion and a desire to better their lives. But how do we translate this compassion into helping those that are not our pets? Bringing together the latest science with heartfelt storytelling, Animals' Best Friends reveals the opportunities we have in everyday life to help animals in our homes, in the wild, in zoos and in science labs, as well as those considered to be food.


This book is not of shaming and limitation, but of uplift and expansion. Though an animal expert, Barbara, like the rest of us, is still on a journey learning each day, how to do better and be better. By turning compassion into action on behalf of animals, we not only improve animals' lives, but we also immeasurably enrich our own.


Lastly, there will be a Q&A segment at the end of the discussion. So please, as questions arise, click the Q&A button at the bottom of the Zoom window and we'll get to them at the end. All right. Without further ado, it's my pleasure to introduce Barbara King and Jeff VanderMeer.


Thank you so much. I appreciate that wonderful introduction and that wonderful summation of this amazing book, Animals' Best Friends, which I appreciated for the fact that it brings such clarity to such complexity-- without reducing the complexity. And that is so difficult to do in a book that is so eminently readable and clear in what it has to say, and also, I think, forward-thinking in its analysis. So first of all, thank you for that, Barbara.


And then also, I thought maybe we would start small, as you do in the book. Because you start talking about an encounter you had with a spider. And you argue that spiders are a good example of an organism we often react to reflexively. So could you talk a little bit about how that encounter and spiders in general have shaped some of your views on animals, and just about your relationship to spiders perhaps?


Sure. I'd love to start with spiders. But I want to thank you, Jeff, first for that really kind introduction, and also just for being here. Your books have really exploded my brain in many ways, positive ways, and I'm happy to be here with you as well to Farm Sanctuary. Because, you know, Farm Sanctuary has been the leader in this field for 35 years. And it's just a great honor to be part of this speaker series. So thank you all.


So in the book, I talk about a day-- and this is many years ago now-- when I was home alone in this house. My husband was out. Our only child at the time was living at home but was also out. And I walked into the bathroom and I saw not one, Jeff, but two spiders.


The doubling of those spiders-- I felt that they were large, and that they were staring at me. And I just became highly reactive, and I took off my shoe. I beat them to death. And I-- down the toilet. And I have regretted that so much, because-- what kind of animal person am I if I'm doing that to two defenseless spiders in my house?


But it turns out that it became a real gateway for me, because I decided that I needed to learn more about spiders and think about them. And that's kind of what Nzinga alluded to, is that this book is about being on a journey. And the spiders were very much part of my journey.


So I started to read a little bit more about them and to try to observe them. And Nzinga, if you could please put up the spider slides, that would be helpful. These are the only three images that I'm going to show during this.


But after this encounter with the two spiders in the house, on one day I was reading outside the house and this very small-- and you have to admit pretty darn cute-- jumping spider came onto my chair. And I just felt a sense of presence. This male or female was walking back and forth and looking at me, clearly was aware of me. I was aware of the spider. And I did some reading and learned that Salticidae-- these jumping spiders-- have a sense of numeracy. That is, they have a way to keep track of small numbers.


And if I could please have the next slide. I also began to watch the spiders that in Virginia come out in August and September. These are orb weavers. And this is maybe a little less cute, and that's what I was challenging myself to do-- to look and get to know this individual. And I ended up naming her Portia after a spider in a science fiction novel. And you can see that of course she here is having a pretty good lunch. So she set up right outside my study window, and every day I could watch.


I read about how spiders think with their webs, that it's part of them in a way that we might think of technology or computers as part of how we think. And overall, I just started to realize that they're part of that circle of animals that I want to be compassionate towards. So the last slide just shows me my favorite sign that my husband ever made, three words that I want on a t-shirt-- DON'T BOTHER SPIDER. We have a spider across our porch, and delivery people and so on were coming up, and we really, really wanted to protect this small life. And I think for me that's really part of the challenge-- it's not just to think about the lives of cats and dogs or elephants and orcas, but to really be aware of who is around us every day and think about how we might help them.


Yeah that's a really important thing. And for me, as the son of an entomologist, the spiders and whatnot are not the thing that I had to worry about being reflexive about. It's other things. So it's-- I think it's different for everyone. I'm curious, what are some of the other daily kind of interactions with animals where you live? And are they a source of joy and groundedness? Or is it a more complex situation than that?


Oh, the best days are the pure joyous days, and they do exist. And I think that's part of the compassion picture that I'm drawing. So we live with seven cats, and they're all rescued. And some of them have special needs. They're sometimes a bit difficult in terms of personality or had trauma in their lives and just eat constantly because they don't really trust the food source will still be there.


Yeah.


We had a cat recently with a very extremely complex femur fracture. And so they're of course part of our family, and when their days are good, our days are good. And so-- but during the pandemic I had what almost sounds like a stereotypical experience, but it was amazing for me, as I opened up to the world of birds in the yard-- and just something as simple as putting out water on hot days, making sure that there's food during the time of the day when they need it most or during migration periods, of course trying to ensure that some of the plants in the yard will be good for pollinators, birds and bees.


And all of that has made my life just threaded through with animals. And so what I try to do is think about how to take that joy that I feel, and in a way scale it up and think about animals that I can't see in front of me. And sometimes the situations that we think about with animals are difficult.


They're tough. They're hard to take in. They make me sad. But it is from the platform of that joy and groundedness that we can do that, and refresh ourselves. So every single day for me is an animal day.


And one more question, just about your yard-- because we share something in common, in that we both have box turtles in our yards. And for me, during the pandemic, I learned more about box turtles, which was a little horrifying for me just because there have been a couple of situations where I've had to pick up a box turtle to help it in some way, especially one that was on the road, and I didn't realize that you really need to-- I mean, I think I picked them up from the bottom so-- but I didn't realize how their skeletoture is-- how much they feel through their shell.


So there were things like that, and I was curious. I find myself projecting things onto the box turtles because they're so unlike us. And I try to stop myself because I know I'm anthropomorphizing, but-- what is your relationship with the box turtles? Do you find yourself doing that? Do you know a lot about box turtles? How do you--


Not really, but what-- the excitement has been the ability to recognize them as individuals, five individuals just crossing our yard, reappearing. And I can often tell who's a male and who's a female. Had a spectacular mating event that we filmed while we were watching them.


So I'm aware of a little bit of what they need in terms of the ability to burrow. And the fact that you don't want to relocate them. Of course if they're in the road, yes. But what we're I think fairly good at doing is trying to look and see what is the goal of this turtle? What direction is he or she going? So that's a little bit in that sense in terms of navigation.


I project and bring them strawberries and blueberries. But other than that I just want them to feel safe, and I don't know what that means to them. But they appear, they let us come close. They don't necessarily pull their heads in either when we come close now. So do you sometimes imagine that they sense that we're not going to rush at them unless they're in immediate danger in the roadway?


Yeah. I do find if you move slowly. And I don't think they can really be habituated by occasional food, which is also something that's good. So--


Yeah, definitely occasionally. In fact I learned from people that I was overfeeding our yard rabbits.


Oh, really?


I was so excited about how they enthusiastically received the bounty of carrots that I was giving. Someone said, there's way too much sugar. You should not be doing-- and so sometimes I do get a little bit into trouble. Because of course I'm not wanting to do this for me. I wanted to do this for them. So I have to be careful.


Yeah. No, I totally get that. So another section of your book, roaming a little farther afield, is about wild or wilder animals. And I think this is kind of topical, but also-- maybe is also a problem that's been around for a while.


It's just-- it came to our attention because of the overload. And that is the stress on animals that are kind of over visited in national parks. And so I was curious. How do we get people to infringe less on wild places while still engaging their empathy?


I mean, I would be perfectly fine with going to a national park and finding that there's just one trail I can go on, and that's it. But I'm a little weird that way. I actually want less access for everyone rather than more. So I'm curious if you would like to talk a little bit about that, and that chapter in your book.


Yeah. I have so loved going to Yellowstone National Park multiple times and became totally smitten with bison. And was very surprised, I guess naively, to see with my own eyes people who would rush out towards the bison as if they were in some kind of Disney movie-- little kids, and one time there was a bus where people-- a tourist bus-- people poured out of the bus down a slope towards the bison. I just couldn't believe what I was seeing.


So the park rangers are there. Don't get closer than 25 feet. There's all kinds of pamphlets. And so if they're not succeeding, I'm not sure that I know how we succeed except to really get across the idea that wild means wild. And I would be very happy if there were more trail shutdowns.


There are a couple of areas in my home state of New Jersey and also here in Virginia where when birds or turtles are nesting popular beaches, popular trails are shut down. I'm sure it's the same in Florida. I think that reminds people that part of what we can do is to still ourselves.


Be quiet. Give wild animals space. And in a bizarre way, I think these viral videos of people getting tossed by bison or have elk rushing at them is a way-- I share them. I share them, and I use Twitter hashtags. Don't be a jerk to wildlife-- just really talking about this and having people remember that respect often means doing absolutely nothing. Don't encroach on their territory any more than we already have.


Do you think part of the problem is a connection with nature that's no longer there? Or misinformation in terms of too many representations of animals in like pop culture and whatnot that kind of distorts what a wild animal is?


Yeah. I think it's the latter. I think it's--


It is.


--unfortunate in a lot of ways. I mean, I don't know if you've had the experience of people coming to your ravine or your yard and not being able-- even a good person-- not being able to be quiet, just using their voice and large movements and large gestures. And I think that part of our education of kids could be very much about this, how we separate out what are these alluring images in cartoons and movies from the way that one acts around real animals.


I was trained in Amboseli National Park to follow baboons for a year, and it is a very fast education. Because if you're not good at what you're doing in terms of economy of emotion and stillness, they leave. And that is the same way really in the yard.


The birds leave if I don't know how to do this. So I think that simply talking about-- there are social values that we use in our communities, how we act around each other. And we teach kids inside voices and outside voices. A parallel set of instructions of how to be around animals would be really, really helpful.


Yeah. And I have to admit that I did-- I usually vet people before I go on long hikes with them but I didn't once, and I had the experience of going on a 12-mile hike with someone who was very loud the entire time. And it was very difficult to have that experience and be polite. And at one point I had to not be polite, but it still didn't really register.


So-- the other thing I wanted to ask you about before we leave this topic is, what do you think about the growing momentum for the idea of striving to preserve 30% of the world in some approximation of a wild state?


Yeah. I think 30% is good, or Ed Wilson's 50% is good. I also really want to emphasize that preserving public land, public landscapes, wild places, wild parks is really super important. And I don't know how we could be against that. But what I'm really, really wanting to convey is the idea of the small patches of land that we live or our college campuses are on, our corporate parks are on, even our balconies, everything-- that has to be part of the effort.


So because I'm not a conservationist and I'm interested in but not very knowledgeable about these big, big projects, the part that I really want to get into is how we can just change our everyday environment. Because even 30% is not going to do it. And we could increase that percentage just dramatically by all contributing again to the right plants, safe environments, all that stuff.


It's kind of the irony that the way that we set up our cities and the fact that we have suburbs with large lots creates this kind of inequality to some degree. And now it's actually the place where nature survives, because we've destroyed the idea of the Commons, so to speak. The thing I find in Tallahassee that's particularly distressing is that we have these easements or these green spaces full of trees between, say, businesses or whatever.


And those are the places that are now getting attacked. And so I feel like in addition to the things you mentioned, these places that seem like they're just something between destinations need to be carefully looked at and preserved and not just thought of as throw away or things that can be developed. Because we're losing a lot of those as well.


So in the book you analyze the issues with zoos, which I think a lot of us are familiar with at this point, which is a good thing. I think that they're-- you bring up some things that I don't think are as obvious. But you also discuss the value of animal sanctuaries when animals can't be returned to the wild.


So my initial question is just-- do you consider a habitat like Busch Gardens, which I visited I think 20 years ago-- and I do remember a fairly vast landscape relative to zoos. But do you consider Busch Gardens, a place like that-- I know you talk about this in the book-- a sanctuary for animals?


I don't. I have frequently visited Busch Gardens here because we're so near Williamsburg, Virginia. And I know there's also one in Florida. Busch Gardens has gotten a lot better from the days when there were small dingy cages for primates and every spring there would be a new crop of baby animals of whatever species.


It was so eerie. You'd leave in September and the animals growing up a little bit, and you'd come back in May and there's babies again. And that's just not the way you educate anyone about anything.


But the one good thing I could say is that some of the animals at Busch Gardens are rescued and rehabilitated. So they're not, for example, able to fly. There four eagles here who could not possibly fly. And I think that that moves you slightly in the direction of a sanctuary. But clearly the idea here is human entertainment, so that the animals always have to be close up and visible and on display.


And I tell a story in the book about the day that I went to see some wolves at Busch Gardens and I noticed there was a little bit of blood on the muzzle of one of them, and there was a quite frantic employee talking into the walkie talkie saying, "This is terrible. There's blood on the muzzle of this wolf. This wolf ate a rodent. We have to get him off the exhibit."


And that is because you can't possibly show a carnivore being a carnivore when you're not a sanctuary. It's about the face of entertainment, and fairly scrubbed entertainment at that. So while I give marks to Busch Gardens for some things, I certainly don't put them in the sanctuary category.


So how much of a sanctuary is dependent on the philosophy behind the organization as opposed to just room to roam?


Everything. Just everything. So if you have zoos-- just that very word, putting animals on exhibit-- so the case for Busch Gardens is very jarring to me, because it becomes this panopticon moment where you could see everything that this animal is doing. And the big advance in a zoo is to have a bush or something where the animal can get away from the human gaze.


And in good sanctuaries-- and of course we're here in the speaker series of one of them-- the idea is that the animals themselves are always primary, and their needs are primary. And the human is second. The human is not part of the picture in the same way at all.


And that is much, much harder to accomplish than it may sound, I believe. Because when you have-- what is it? 800 animals at the Watkins Glen Farm Sanctuary property, and you're making sure that the animals' lives are what come first and not the human gaze, that takes an amazing amount of commitment. And I would also say that I learned through some distressing experiences that simply having sanctuary in the name of an organization is not enough to know what's happening.


So going to Farm Sanctuary in Watkins Glen, going to the Center for Great Apes in Wauchula, Florida, the real deal. You can see it and you can hear it. You can tell the philosophy.


It's the same thing with wildlife rescue places. I was absolutely shocked to google stuff online. We have a great one locally, St. Francis, that does all the things correctly. When I google things online, I find advice from wildlife rescue places that's absolutely false about how you feed baby squirrels and stuff. It's really remarkable to me, the variation.


So I can only imagine with sanctuaries. But you did have a chance to visit the sponsor of this event. You talk about that a little bit in the book, Farm Sanctuary in Watkins Glen. Could you tell us a little bit about that experience? I know you do in the book, but if you could just--


Oh--


--give us some--


I'd love to. I have so many good memories of coming to Farm Sanctuary. I was invited to speak in August at the Sanctuary weekend some years ago, but I really wanted to go to look and listen and learn. And that's exactly what happened.


So one of my favorite set of memories was standing at the sheep and goat barn. And-- I don't even know how to put it into words. It's such an amazing place, because there are animals that are just running freely-- and I'm going to anthropomorphize joyfully, because you can tell it's not really anthropomorphism-- just up and back.


There's a barn shelter. There's all kinds of goats and sheep around. I saw one goat wearing braces. In other words, this is bringing forward that notion where it's a place where the animals themselves set the tone, make decisions, set the pace.


So some animals wanted to come up to the very few human visitors who were there. In fact, on the jacket of my book I have a picture of Cynthia Goat, whom I met at the sheep barn. And she wanted pets and caresses. And other animals didn't. And it was all their choice.


Every animal was valued. Every animal had a friend, whether it would be an animal friend mostly, occasionally a human friend. And this was multiplied by the cows and the sheep and the turkeys and the chickens.


And so I felt that it was a moment to see for myself, not just read about or watch a video about but watch in three dimensions, what it's like for the animals to express themselves in sanctuary. And I saw that. It was great.


Yeah. I was going to say too that I think some of it is undervalued, but I see it even in rewilding our yard. The Farm Sanctuary has been around for 35 years. That consistency I think is incredibly important. That stability is incredibly important. But I was wondering if you had a chance to sum it up, not just your visit but just in terms of thinking about an organization, thinking about Farm Sanctuary, what's the power of a sanctuary like this one?


OK, yes. I have a large cat coming up to the screen, but-- yes. The sanctuary is a very important question. And I think it starts for me with the concept of safety. Because sanctuary means physical safety, emotional safety, psychological safety for vulnerable beings, and we know that the world can be a tough place. And we know that with industrial agriculture it's a really tough place for farm animals.


So the example that I gave a minute ago of meeting a goat wearing braces was so meaningful to me, because here is an animal that would have been in other spheres considered imperfect, disposal-- and of course not at all in sanctuary. This animal was seen as intrinsically valuable.


The other thing I would say is that it's wonderful to be in sanctuary because the animals are not symbolic, and they're not there for humans. They're not symbols of anything. They're flesh and blood animals who are given space in every sense of the word space to express their desires.


But at the same time, the property, the landscape, the physical place of the sanctuary is symbolic of a world that I think could be very different. And recognize that the world wasn't made for us. And I talk a lot as an anthropologist about this concept of human exceptionalism, the idea that humans are somehow more complicated, better or superior-- our language is better, our tools are better, our society is better.


And I push back against that. I resist that. And that's exactly what sanctuary does. It makes you see that human exceptionalism misses the point.


It's a glimpse of a better future for all of us in a way, I would say. I would also just add for those who are watching and listening that I donated $200 to farmsanctuary.org today, and it was quick and remarkably easy. And I highly recommend doing so at whatever level makes sense for you.


And now-- this feels like a good time to ask if you'd like to read from the book and give readers a sense of it while your cat comes on stage behind you.


OK. I'm going to set this up a little bit. I wanted to read a passage about a farm animal. And this passage-- I'm opening it up discussing that I've just flown into the Midwest to give a keynote at a conference to talk about animal grief and love. And before that happens-- there's the cat-- I happened to go and take a walk with a friend, a drive with a friend, to spend some time with the animals that were on campus. So--


"Driving down a rough road, we arrived at the university's horse farm. We got out and stood by its fence to take in the view. Foals snuggled up to their mothers. Juvenile males kicked up their heels in playful mock fighting. The sun glinted off the horses' chestnut-colored coats.


"All in all, the picture was one of joyful movement and relaxed socializing. Here was exactly the animal high that I had thought-- indeed, that I routinely seek. If I'm at a party, I look for the dog or cat. If I'm traveling, I seek a good spot to encounter local wildlife. And now my friend and I found a few moments of equine bliss.


"Driving farther along into the agricultural school section of this campus, we came upon a sign marking the Dairy Cattle Research Area. My eye caught sight of a cow but my brain couldn't immediately make sense of the image before me because a large, clear, ring-shaped window was embedded in the cow's side. The ring looked like an ocean liner's porthole-- transparent and able to be pulled open by a person. Down the cow's flank seeped a kind of liquid discharge.


"Placidly the cow chewed her food as she stood next to a quote 'normal' cow with no portal. Under a blue July sky, no other humans within sight or sound, the scene took on an eerie feel. Who was this cow? To what use in dairy research was she put? At that point my mind was stuffed with thoughts of animal joy and grief-- the subject of my talk-- and I couldn't help but wonder, what did this cow experience when people reached through the portal into the very depths of her body?"


And I learned through doing some research that this particular cow that I saw was called Brooke, that she was well known on campus, that there are hundreds of cows like this in this country and more across the world, and they're called fistulated cows. And the portal is there so that veterinary teachers can teach students by having them put their hands in the body. It is also there because some of that stuff that's being churned up in that bacterial vat of the cow's stomach can be taken out and given to a sick cow for a sort of transfaunation-- help to an ill cow.


But a few pages later-- I just want to read two more sentences, because I think that that day really changed my thinking in a number of ways.


"The construction of Brooke as a fussed-over cow exists on a continuum with stylized drawings of smiling cows who grace signs outside barbecue restaurants."


So there were all these articles about how Brooke was basically a Clara Barton of cows and had this wonderful life. And I got to think about when you go to a restaurant-- I don't eat animals. I don't eat barbecue. But when you see these depictions of happy cows and happy pigs, it's just quite off-putting.


"These depictions are created to strengthen the notion that a surface story is true-- these animals are OK with what happens to them, and these events occur humanely."


And of course we know that they don't occur humanely, and that animals are suffering.


I'm getting a message that I have to change a battery up here.


So let me just say that part of what this made me realize is that there was such a metaphor there of transparency, that we could see into this cow's body. But for the most part, certainly industrial agricultural is not transparent about what happens to animals, and animals kept in laboratories-- the biomedical research community is not transparent about what happens to animals. And so I just really wanted to play with that, and to say that greater awareness of this stuff that happens can give us opportunities to speak up and to do better and be better for these animals that are caught up in these huge systems. But we can play a part in that, in helping-- fighting against that.


And one thing that struck me was how you had information on how pain management for those cows differs greatly and also is often rather inadequate after the operation-- at least it seemed to me. And then also the PR aspect that you're mentioning, this kind of need to make the cows-- make it seem like the cows are happy. You mentioned in the book something about a kind of a holy cow campaign, which is truly tasteless in my opinion, about how the cow is happy to be of help and leading a great life and everything. And--


And that holy-- right? The hole--


Right. Yeah.


The [INAUDIBLE] supposedly of this helper cow. It's just too much.


Yeah. It strikes me that a lot of time and thought and sadly imagination is put into creating these things, these walls around the things that we do to animals, so that we can kind of live with the thought of it. And I'm just curious. When you walk around in your daily life do you see what you consider propaganda about animals everywhere you go? I mean, is it just that rife through society? And then also what kinds or what types of propaganda about animals do you think are most insidious or just invisible to most people?


I do see it everywhere, from the idea that we should go entertain ourselves by watching orcas kept in small cages jump around for us, and that is because they're happy to perform for us, to-- I'm really thinking quite a lot about animals in laboratories, because what you find-- and here is another example of propaganda, first of all that we need these animals to make ourselves healthy by, say, drug experimentation, and that there's this incredible supposedly ethical overlay for all of these experiments so that there's nothing really bad happening, because everybody cares about the animals.


And if you do the research. I will tell you at the university level, at the federal level, these labs do not have good ethical oversight. But the research community is absolutely invested. And you see it if you go to different web pages. You see mice in a gloved hand or a monkey cavorting in a cage, and it's absolutely meant to keep us from asking questions.


And there's one study that I wanted to mention that was done in America where two sets of participants were told a story about tree kangaroos. And in one story tree kangaroos live in New Guinea-- period. In the other story, tree kangaroos live in New Guinea and get eaten. And the only difference was that between these two groups.


And the participants who heard that tree kangaroos got eaten immediately judged them as less capable of suffering and less deserving of our moral concern. And that's exactly what the meat industry and the industrial ag industry wants. They want us to not look at the animals that we eat.


And yet you go to Farm Sanctuary and hang out with the cows, the pigs, the chickens, and they are so profoundly thinking and feeling, and you see that. But there has to be a veil over that. And of course many of us here in this audience are resisting that, and that's a good thing.


And I just wanted to point out that you have an essay in Psyche online in part about what you just talked about-- the false dichotomy of how animals, for example, are seen as a necessary sacrifice to cure cancer when in fact the data indicates that a lot of this research is completely useless. And you see that even in-- I remember having a horrible college biology class where they dissected a frog. And it's like-- why are we all doing this, this weird ritual that isn't actually doing a whole lot for anybody and definitely not for the frogs involved-- just seems completely pointless.


So one thing I always ask myself, and it's a very crude indicator. I don't know that it always applies. But I always ask myself in a situation when I'm thinking about the non-human, if this was happening to a human being, would it be OK? And the flash point for me was-- there was this video I shared of this otter in a zoo within a little glass cage with two little holes so it could reach out and shake hands. And all these people were sharing it as the cutest thing ever. And to me it was absolutely horrifying.


And you see this phenomenon in a lot of videos that are shared about animals worldwide on social media, is that they're actually horrifying if you really think about what's going on in choices. So do you ask yourself similar questions? Do you-- since the spider incident, for example, and the reflectivity of that, do you feel like you sometimes have to be on guard? I mean more than a lot of us about these things, so maybe you don't anymore. I still feel like I have to be.


On guard because there's so much that's deceptive? Or--


Yeah. That there's so much, and there's so much in the monoculture that harms animals even without realizing it, I guess.


Oh, yes. OK. Well, frequently I am sent cross species friendship videos where you will-- for example an orangutan feeding tiger cubs. And it turns out that this quote unquote "sanctuary" is extremely exploitative of these individuals. And I know that because I know the history of the sanctuary, which is not a sanctuary.


So then I wonder, what don't I know? That makes me very wary. So now, really before I share anything, go anywhere, recommend anything, I try to do a lot of research, and that is helpful. But yes, I'm very guarded.


And the whole question of realizing-- my work has involved so much about animal emotions, their ability-- many animals-- to feel love and to feel grief-- that I kind of have to walk a line here. Because if people come back at me and say, oh, you're anthropomorphizing and you're projecting, my answer is absolutely not. Because what I'm doing is looking scientifically at the visible cues that animals show us.


I have a good definition of what animal grieving looks like. I look for that, and I see it. And so my answer is here the animal is telling us something from his or her own actions, and we have to open our eyes and see them. So it's only anthropomorphic in that situation if we think that love and grief is entirely human, right? Because anthropomorphism is detecting human qualities. But if it's not actually human to begin with, then it can't be anthropomorphic.


So I want to be able to say don't get too, too worried about anthropomorphism when it's scientifically grounded. But then you have to really worry about this other stuff, which is sort of packaged cuteness, when you don't know the source of it. So there's that balance I'm trying to achieve.


Yeah. And that's a really good point about animal emotion and grief, because one of the more horrific experiences I had in that context knowing-- having read some of your work and read other people's work-- is an essay in Harper's just three years ago by someone who should have known better, where the central argument was only humans can really experience grief or these kinds of emotions, and then went on from there. And it was just like-- why is this stuff not fact checked? So I'm curious.


I have a couple more questions, and then we're going to take questions from the audience, so please do get them in in the Q&A section at the bottom of your screen. But can you tell us a little bit about reactions to your writings about animals? Do you sometimes hear of big changes in readers? Or is it mostly smaller incremental steps? What is the reader feedback like?


One thing I love is when people write me and say, I read your octopus chapter-- this is the previous book-- and I'm never going to eat an octopus again. Among my other very, very favorite invertebrates in addition to spiders, octopus-- and unfortunately they are a candidate for aquaculture now. It's a disaster. It's like replicating the factory farm. And it's just wrong for so many reasons.


But the point is that when I talk about this, my suggestion is-- OK, we know that octopus are really smart and we know that they flash their moods on their skin. Those are all great reasons not to eat them. But that's not the only reasons we shouldn't eat them. We don't want to end up having this human standard of oh, we're only going to be kind to animals who are like us, or who we can recognize are smart and thinking.


And when people get that and they write to me about that and they say you know, it's not just because octopus can solve problems and use tools. I just don't want to eat them anymore. Or with pigs. Or with cows. It's extremely-- it's just uplifting, and it's just wonderful.


And then I get-- I will tell a story about being on stage at the World Science Festival in New York. And there was another panelist who actually said to me in front of many hundreds of people that I had embellished a story to make a point about animal emotions. And scientists get very nervous in some cases-- not all, but in some cases-- when you are freely throwing around words like love and grief for animals. There's a real bifurcation.


I have lots and lots of colleagues who predated me and taught me things about animal emotion, and I am part of this community. But there's still many who are very threatened by that idea. And I wonder, is it not because they have to use animals in research and it's pretty inconvenient to know that they have these emotions.


Yeah. I mean, I expressed that just as a single line in a presentation, and the person who had invited me actually came down afterwards and said something along the lines of-- do you want to just do away with the Enlightenment? Which seemed an odd overreaction.


So we are going to go to audience questions in this section, but I am going to put you on the spot in kind of a speed round. I know you don't believe in any kind of hierarchy of animals. I don't either. But I'm going to ask you to choose between two different animals-- there's a couple of sets of these-- and tell us why you would choose one over the other. OK? Are you ready? Are you prepared?


I'm ready.


OK Wolf spider or box turtle?


Wolf spider, because I owe them everything-- those were the spiders I killed.


Leech or nurse shark?


Oh, nurse shark. Actually, I'm going to have to admit that to you sharks are cool.


Raccoon or raccoon dog?


Oh, raccoon. Manipulative, fascinating, they're absolutely difficult in our yard sometimes, but we love them. They break into everything.


I thought this would be more difficult for you, Barbara, but obviously not. And the last one before we go to the audience questions-- cow or another cow?


Yes. Every cow. I'll embrace every cow, including all the cows at Farm Sanctuary. I opened my book, you know-- very first page is in the cow barn.


Yeah.


All those cows are the cows I choose.


Yeah. Thought you would say that. OK, so we're going to go to audience questions. And we seem to have quite a few, so give me a second here.


Well, let's just go to this. What do you feed your cats? I know dogs can be vegan, but I understand cats cannot.


Cats are obligate carnivores, and we feed them what we ourselves don't eat in this house. And we feed them cat food, and I really dislike thinking about what's in that cat food. Because I know what's in that cat food.


But if you're going to have cats, the things that I say-- first of all, keep them inside. We don't want them out there eating birds and wildlife. And secondly, feed them the way that they were evolved to be fed. So we don't feed our cats people food.


Do you worry that solutions like plant-based and cultured meats allow us to not address the underlying issues you discuss regarding how we perceive our relationship to animals?


Great question. I've not eaten animals for quite a while now, and I have a refrigerator in the next room full of nondairy and plant-based food. I'm very-- very-- very close to eating at this point almost all my meals-- and I think that that has made me feel closer to the issues of animal agriculture, rather than more distant. I understand the point of the question, but I got there by informing myself about why it is important to do this.


In the book I do say-- and this is really no surprise to anyone-- the single best thing we can do for animals at this point is eat plants. Cultured meat I know people are reactive to, both in the plant-based community and without. I think I was more concerned in the first years when plant-based meat was incorporating, say, fetal bovine serum. But the companies have moved beyond that to a certain degree.


And if you hear a person say I don't want to eat that dirty lab meat, I ask them-- what the heck do you think you're eating when you're eating meat? I think that we need all the solutions together, and that they can close that gap. Because we know we are doing things for animals, rather than distancing ourselves from animals.


Absolutely. Another question. How can we encourage a sense of connection between humans and other species without encouraging or allowing close contact?


Yes. I think that there's so much wonderful things happening now with VR-- virtual reality technology-- that can convey so much about who animals are. Of course we've had vegan documentary movies all along, but I think VR in some ways is going to be a game changer. I have myself experienced VR movies about animals.


But I also think we want people to be in nature. We want them out there. So it just has to be an understanding that you don't go to a national park because you are human and you own that park. There has to be much, much more education about-- you're entering another animal's habitat. And of course this house is built on animals' habitat. We always are in animals' habitat-- and to really, really think about that.


So here's a question. Even with compassion and care for all beings, aren't there life situations where we have to sadly kill animals that cause harm and negative impacts, such as bedbugs or wasps? I would just add that I have never killed a wasp in my life and never had a need to. But what would you say to that?


I don't kill wasps either, but I will say that this is also a good question. And I want to answer it in two different ways. I have developed really a sense that what's important is being aspirational about not wanting to harm animals, because there's no way that we can live without harming animals.


What I eat harms animals. I mean, I eat a lot of fruits and vegetables, non-dairy stuff, and I know that I'm not escaping the harming of animals, because agriculture just does kill animals-- small animals out in the fields or whatever. But I also have had a tick-borne illness twice in Africa. I had malaria. I see ticks in my house, I do not rescue them.


I feel that there has to be to some degree a sense of public health concern as well, so that there has to be some degree of balance. And I think that an understanding that we cannot live without harming other animals is at once both sad, but is also a motivator to try to do so as little as possible. And understanding that we don't have to be grief stricken, because it just is the way of the world. We just have to try each to our own circumstance and ability.


And certainly as an anthropologist I understand global inequalities, and we're not all going to be able to enter this equation in the same place. But just-- what is amazing is how many people are trying. This is what I respect, that we're in this together, that we're a community, that we want to reward each other for doing these positive things, and that we can feel joy. And before we end, I do want to say one more thing about joy. But--


OK. I'll try to make a note of that then. There's so many great questions here it's actually making it difficult. Can you-- I don't know if I disagree with the premise of the question, but can you talk about the harshness of life in the wild and the role of compassion for predatory animals?


OK. Well, predatory animals are not being aggressive, and they're not carrying out murder. They're evolved to do what they do. And there's a huge, huge amount of discrimination against predators, really, really concerning in this country. For example, wolves-- we only have to look at what happened this past winter in the West with the indiscriminate killing of far too many wolves.


So I want to make clear that we humans kill other animals in a very unusual way. Predators are not doing what we are doing. They're just being who they are.


So I think that in some ways nature is harsh. I mean there are some times when I looked at Portia, the spider who I described to you as having this web outside my window, and I kind of had a little crush on Portia for the two months she was there. And she would get these beautiful insects and eat them. And It was hard.


But I'm not going to take an insect out of the web. I am not going to try to stop anything that's going on naturally in my yard. It's just that's the way that life evolved. And so there's so much going on that we are doing, that I would rather put the emphasis on how we can stop all the problems that we are creating. If that makes sense.


Yeah, absolutely. And this is another-- I think it's not a difficult question, but it's definitely a question that I think some people would not like to know the answer to. Is there a way to eat meat and still be a legitimate animal rights supporter?


I will say that I can't see that for myself, but I do have a section in the book where I talk about this marvelous book by Sonora Taylor who writes about how wrong it is to judge people who say, I can't eat a plant-based diet because of a disability. In other words, there are people who can't eat the way they might wish to eat because of-- their body rebels, they simply can't, or perhaps a disability makes it impossible for them to choose the meals and prepare the meals that they would want.


And my point here is-- I do consider myself in some ways after cancer treatment to be disabled in some of the ways that I function in the world. And I think we all are disabled at one point and another in our lives. That's just one example. But I think that it's very important not to have complete purity tests all the time for who is the best friends to animals.


I admire vegans tremendously. I've learned so much from them. But part of what vegans tell me is that being compassionate should extend to other people. And this is something that I saw in action at Farm Sanctuary.


Farm Sanctuary is welcoming to people coming through the door whether they are vegan or not vegan. This is a roundabout way of answering the question. I think it's imperative for all of us to cut back as much as we possibly can on meat, dairy, and seafood. But that might look a little different depending on what community you're in, what country you're in, what disability community. And I think that's the best way I can answer it.


OK. We have time for a couple more questions, but I'm not going to forget about the joy at the very end. But someone mentions having enjoyed and somehow taken hope from the fact that you and I have become friends on Twitter and would love to know more about how that came about. And as usual, as I get older I forget things. So Barbara, I feel like I've known you a very long time even though I haven't, and I've never met you. But I can't really recall how that came about in the first place.


Well, this kind of actually plays into joy for me. Because in one of your presentations on Zoom-- it might have been Hummingbird Salamander recently. I don't know.


You mentioned how people come to your work from all different angles. Some people come from your books, or Annilihation, the movie, and then your books. Or from rewilding hashtag on Twitter.


And I came to your work through Dead Astronauts. And that book was-- I can't even describe how it just made me think in such an amazingly different way about animals. And so I reviewed it, and I reviewed Borne for--


That's right. Yeah.


[INAUDIBLE] magazine. And I had been following you for a while, but I think that's when we actually began to intersect. I began to realize that first of all, I wanted to keep reading you, but I also wanted to keep following you. Because every single day amazing photos and videos. So people, if you're not following Jeff VanderMeer, @rewilding-- right?


No, Vanderwild. But yeah, that doesn't matter.


But what I wanted to say about joy is that there's a reason why the single epigraph in my book is "Joy only reminds you why we fight." That's from Dead Astronauts. That's your line. It's because it says everything to me. It is-- I mean, what we're talking about here is how difficult some things are in this world when we want to help animals, but the joy is there.


And the joy is so important, because it's the whole foundation for why all of us in this community get up every day. When it's hard, when it's easy, whatever the day, it's because we want that joy not just for ourselves, but for all beings in the world. And so I just want to thank you for that whole sentence and the whole book, because it was amazing.


Well, thank you for your book, which is pretty amazing too. And I think we've run out of time for questions, unfortunately. There are so many questions. But in closing, I just was wondering where you would place Animals' Best Friend in the context of your other work, if you have a moment to just briefly address that.


It's a logical extension for me of my other two books with the University of Chicago-- and shout out to my publishers with a thank you. How Animals Grieve was a pretty personal book in some ways. I was grappling with understanding how animals deal with loss. The next one, Personalities on the Plate, the Lives and Minds of Animals We Eat, was a little more personal.


But this one, Animals' Best Friends, is much more trying to understand and grapple with these questions through the way that my own life has turned out. And it is across so many different contexts. So it is what I think of as an amplification and an explosion of the science storytelling that came before, to say, look. OK, you know the science now. The animals are waiting. Let's get with it.


And I also wanted to say that I really am active on Twitter. So if people have questions that they did not get to ask, I'm very happy to answer them either through my website, barbarajking.com, or on Twitter, which is bjkingape. If you just identify yourself as having a question from tonight, I'll get back to you.


And I think we can fit in one more, just to end on something I think is really interesting. Because your book is really about communicating a lot of these issues. And I know I struggle with this question too, even in talking to the neighbors sometimes.


Do you have advice on how to educate and enlighten friends and family on everything we know about the plight of animals when there seems to be so much to communicate and so many issues and thus the risk of overwhelming them and/or losing the poignancy of the overall issue of animal compassion? Do you have any advice or words to address that?


I would say focus on the individual storytelling. And by that I mean talk about not the plight of octopuses in aquaculture. Talk about Inky, the octopus who escaped from a zoo. Talk about the octopus that you met somewhere, as I was able to meet an octopus and have him touch my skin and taste me.


But if you don't know octopus, that's fine. Go to Farm Sanctuary's website and look at the video of Curly the steer. Because if you talk about animal grief and you look at that video, it brings the whole thing right into immediate focus.


And just, I think, make it real in terms of individual animals' lives rather than big, big abstracts. Talk about the pig that you're not eating and why. Anything along those lines. And I would add find some kind of a local connection if you possibly can, something that really ties in. Here in North Florida, with a lot of biodiversity, it's fairly easy to find something that resonates.


Yes. Good point.


Thank you so much. I think that Farm Org. Is going to come back on and end this, but thank you so much. It's really been a joy to talk to you. So--


Thank you so much, Jeff. That was really fun.


Good.


Yes.


Thanks all around. Thank you, Barbara and Jeff just for leading this really incredible, insightful conversation-- and Barbara, to you for the wonderful tools that you give to the community. These books are really important to other activists and helping us spread the message and do more for animals. So we thank you so, so much for being with us.


I'm going to add in the chat a link to more information about Animals' Best Friends if you'd like to learn more about the book. And of course to all of you, thank you all so much for attending. A recording of this event will be available on our website early next month. And I'll give you the link to that as well. And in the meantime you're welcome to visit this link and see past recordings of Sanctuary Speakers series that we've put together.


Farm Sanctuary is also celebrating our 35th anniversary this year. You can get more information on our website on the power of sanctuary. Again thank you all for attending, and have a wonderful evening.


Thank you so much. Bye, everybody.


Thanks again.

Welcome to Sanctuary Speaker Series. My name is Nzinga Young, and I'm the Senior Manager of Events and Experience here at Farm Sanctuary. In honor of Women's History Month, we're joined by two women who are making a difference in animal rights and impact investing.


Alicia Robb is both the Founder and CEO of Next Wave Impact and the Research Director at Cruelty-Free Investing. Alicia has a PhD in economics and has worked in research and policy for more than 20 years with groups like the Kauffman Foundation and the Federal Reserve Board. She is a prolific author on topics of entrepreneurship and entrepreneurial finance as well as an active angel investor, a managing partner of two early stage venture funds, and a lead investor for the Angel Group Vegan investors. She's a board member for several groups and has been honored by the Angel Capital Association for her work promoting impact investing and racial and gender equality.


Alicia will be interviewed by Farm Sanctuary's very own Megan Watkins, who held senior roles in philanthropic advisory and wealth management at Bank of America Private Bank and JP Morgan before joining us as Farm Sanctuary CEO. Most recently, she led the development of a national philanthropic practice that guided family, corporate, and institutional foundations through the design of high impact giving programs. Megan graduated from Barnard College and holds a master's degree from Columbia University. I now welcome Alicia Robb and Megan Watkins.


Thank you so much, Nzinga. And welcome, Alicia. We are so thrilled to have you with us today. There is so much that we could be talking about in the hour that we have. And we thought that we would spend a little bit of time focusing first on your background, talking a little bit about maybe just a basic intro to impact investing, why it's so relevant in our space. And then given the importance of the topic around women and impact investing in women's leadership, maybe spend a few minutes there before we talk about accountability-- what everyone here with us today can take away from this session, what we can all do a little bit differently in furtherance of the kind of world that we all want to take part in building. So with that, why don't we get started with having you tell us a little bit about your journey within the impact investing world, how your focus has evolved over time.


Great. Well, first, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. I got started in finance through microfinance in Central America as a women's empowerment tool-- how do we get capital to women to give them control over their futures. And through microfinance, that's how I first got interested in that. And it kind of evolved into my own interest in small business finance and entrepreneurship. So I actually, if I would have known, like 10 years ago, I was going to be running an impact fund, I wouldn't have seen the path. I call myself an accidental venture capitalist because I didn't take a traditional route into impact investing.


I started investing really through crowdfunding. With the JOBS Act in 2012, I was actually at the Kauffman Foundation. Most of my professional career has been as an economist doing research and entrepreneurship and entrepreneurial finance. But I did start investing through crowdfunding, which allowed everyday people to do investing through platforms. And through that, then I became an angel investor and started investing in private companies.


And I became a venture capitalist because I was doing research on the gender and racial gaps and entrepreneurship, and looked into the racial and gender gaps in entrepreneurial finance as investors. And those gaps are even bigger, and they're very much related. You often hear less than 3% of venture capital goes to women, female CEOs. And one reason is because most of the venture capitalists are white men. And we like to invest in things and people that look like us. And so one way to get more capital to women and people of color is to get more women and people of color on the investing side.


So I pilot at a fund with 99 women using my research and how do we get more women and people of color into investing and getting over the barriers that prevent a lot of people from investing when they could. And from there, I realized I didn't just want to invest in women and people of color, but I wanted to invest in companies that were really making a difference in social and environmental problems that we were facing.


So next wave impact is an impact fund, and we invest in impact companies. And we have 99 women investors in our fund, 25 of them women of color. So we're having an impact not just in the kinds of companies that we invest in, but also by bringing more women and people of color into the ecosystem as investors.


Amazing. Amazing. And I love-- what's funny, both of us actually started out in microfinance. Before we dive into deep into the topic of impact investing. I actually want to pause for a minute because when we first met, you told me that you were actually just joining the board of a farm animal sanctuary. And I don't want to miss having the opportunity to highlight that before we dive in. Because I love that we're focused on kind of the big picture systems investment dialogue, but I also don't want to lose that we're two people here who obviously have a great affinity for farm animals and certainly are both in the sanctuary space. So we'd love to hear just a little bit about that.


Sure. Loving Arms is a Colorado farm animal sanctuary. It was started in 2015 and is in Erie Colorado, which is just East of Boulder, Colorado. So yeah, I just joined the board. And I joined the board for a few reasons.


One, I wanted to marry my interest in animal rights with my skill set and had been on a nonprofit board prior Compassion Without Borders in California run by a vegan vet. And I was looking for an opportunity because the boards I'm on now are mainly financed and impact-funded boards. And so I really wanted an opportunity to use my skills for something I feel very passionate about, which is animal rights and farm sanctuaries as a tool for education and outreach and advocacy. In the mission of Loving Arms is the [INAUDIBLE] and non-violence towards all living beings. So it was a natural fit. And I'm excited to be on board there.


Oh, thank you for sharing that. And they're absolutely lucky to have you. And I'm looking forward, we can revisit that a little bit later, too. So let's dive into impact investing. And for those who are with us who maybe haven't spent a lot of time with the topic, but just heard even in just your introductory remarks, so many compelling points about what this big world of impact investing has to do with helping us to create this more equitable, more compassionate, more just world. Help me break it down for the people who are tuning in today. What do we mean by impact investing? Why is it so important to think about impact investing as a strategy, as a tool, as we think about building toward this better world?


Sure. Well, it's not a new practice. I, mean values-aligned investing can be traced back to the 1700s with the Quakers who prohibited their members from investing in businesses that supported the slave trade. More recently, in the US, you can think about the Vietnam War when there was a movement away from weapons producers, or in the '80s with apartheid and divesting from companies that supported them. And impact investing now is so much more developed as a field. But yet, it's still new.


When you think about impact investing, you're thinking about investing your money in ways that have social and environmental returns and not just financial returns. So that's everything from your cash to your stock market to bonds, et cetera. We can talk about the different asset classes, but really you're looking for your money to have social and environmental benefits. I'm sure a lot of people have heard about SRI, Sustainable and Responsible Investing. That's more like just a negative screen you want to keep things out of your portfolio that like weapons or tobacco all the way through investing in companies that are actually finding solutions to real problems. So we can talk about that more.


But even as individual purchasers, where we spend our money makes a difference. And so who are you buying from? Are you buying from Main Street? Are you buying from Amazon? Like, who are you supporting with your consumer dollars? It's not just your investment dollars, but money has impact.


Well, and that is something that I have heard you say, everything that we do has an impact. When we think about, just as you were saying, the dollars we spend or we save and anything could potentially have an impact, positive or negative. So can you expand on that a little bit? I mean, for those who are joining today, I think, OK, well I've got a savings account or-- here's one of the purchasing decisions I may have made, but maybe help me think about that a little bit in terms of the kind of impact someone might want to create with what it is that they do have.


Sure. I think one of the great things about impact investing is so much of our-- so many people think about investing and philanthropy in two different buckets of money. I make money in the stock market, and then I use those gains and donate them. But what if you're investing in companies that have detrimental effects on the economy or on the planet or on animals? And then you're using those profits to support a farm sanctuary, that makes no sense, right? So how can we look at where our money is right now? And is it having a positive impact? Or are we supporting things that aren't in line with our values?


So for example, banking. Where are you banking? Where does your money spend the night? Because you're not investing it. You have it in a bank and you're earning 0.001%. Well, the bank is lending your money out and investing in things and making money on your money. So where are they putting that money? Are they investing in oil and gas? Or are they investing in tobacco? Or are they investing in the private prison system? So looking at even where you're holding your cash, you can have a significant difference. You can be putting your money into local credit unions or community development financial institutions, and not in a bank that's doing bad things with your money.


That's interesting. And I feel as, though, for some who maybe a decade or two ago and certainly in the realm of microfinance, you heard a lot about credit unions and there was a lot of work happening in partnership with credit unions. You think about credit unions now as an option or as an alternative, can you just talk a little bit more about that, where you've seen the re-emergence of credit unions as you think about where people are placing dollars in terms of saving it in savings accounts and other items?


Yeah. Well, I do think more and more people are realizing, hey, where is my money spending the night? And so whether it's a local community bank or a credit union-- for example, like Self-Help Credit Union and Clean Energy Credit Union, these are credit unions that really are aligned with a lot of people's values of wanting to invest in clean energy or in community development. And so you know as a client with them that they're using your savings to make small business loans to women and people of color or they're investing in loans for solar projects. So it's a win-win. And there's a lot of options out there now in terms of-- no matter where you are, the Clean Energy Credit Union is only online, so you can be anywhere and use that. Self-Help, again, from most states, you can become a member. So it really is opens up these kinds of options for everyone, no matter where you live.


And like you were saying, not just screening out the bad, kind of proactively identifying what are some of those things that you really do want to support. So if we take that a step further, you were mentioning earlier some of the other asset classes. Maybe we can just talk for a few minutes about building beyond that place of cash and thinking about even into their cruelty-free or some of the vegan, some of the plant-based spaces.


Sure. So one of the things I'm involved with is Cruelty-Free Investing, which is a non-profit that actually lists all the publicly traded stocks on the various stock markets and classifies them into those that exploit animals and those that don't. So you can see, actually, if you do hold individual stocks in the stock market, are they exploiting animals or not? We also have a resource page there that lists a lot of options that are either wealth managers that are vegan or have a vegan screen. There is actually a vegan ETF now on the publicly traded markets, which is actually doing quite well.


So, yeah. So there's a lot of stocks that you can actually buy that are cruelty-free, but there's a lot more options to diversify your risk by investing in exchange-traded funds or mutual funds that create a basket of stocks to really diversify your risk. Just like in early stage investing across the different asset classes, one of the most risky is the early stage. And so you want to diversify within that asset class as well. You wouldn't want to hold all your money in one public stock. That's just very risky.


And so by diversifying across a number of ETFs or mutual funds, you can actually do a screen now on what kinds of impact you'd like to make. And there are ETFs and mutual funds out there that have an impact lens, gender lens, you name it. So there's a lot more opportunities in the last five or 10 years than they were 10 or 20 years ago.


And as you think about how your role-- when you mentioned up front about your role as an angel investor or identifying some of these opportunities, especially in the animal rights or vegan space, maybe just talk a little bit about that for this audience. How accessible are those kinds of opportunities? What are some of the things that you look for? What inspires you as you're looking in particular at the vegan, the plant-based, the animal rights kind of opportunities?


Sure. Well, up until recently, it was really restricted to limited investors, those investors that met a threshold on income or wealth. So right now the definition is 200,000 in income or 300,000 per household in the last two years or a million or more in assets, not including your primary residence. And so that is the kind of a self-accreditation, but you have to be accredited to do early stage investing. But with the JOBS Act in 2012, it really opened it up in terms of allowing folks to do early stage investing both from crowdfunding and just through the regulation.


So there's a lot of interesting opportunities in this space, whether you have a little bit of money or a lot of money. I mean, in crowdfunding, you can go on to platforms like Republic or Wefunder. And I've [INAUDIBLE] a Google-- or a search on vegan companies. And I've probably supported 10 or 20 in the past 5 or 10 years. And you can invest as little as $100 or $1,000 in these companies. So that's one way


And then, as you mentioned, I'm an angel investor and run a vegan syndicate, vegan angel investors-- veganinvestors.com. And we are a group of investors that are looking to invest in vegan-led vegan companies. So there's a lot of entrants into the vegan space, because it is so hot right now. And everybody, with the Beyond IPO recently, I think there's a lot of people getting into this space to make money, and aren't necessarily values-aligned. And so we're really looking for vegan-led vegan companies in order to support their growth, and scaling, and hopefully wealth accumulation into the vegan community so that we can do more with our dollars.


That's amazing. Well, and I think it's-- we intentionally chose this topic and wanted to invite you as a speaker for the month of March. You know, it's Women's History Month. We wanted to highlight women's leadership.


And certainly in this realm, I think speaking about you and speaking about women generally, women have really championed impact investing. There has been so much development within space that has been led by women. You think about women becoming the primary wealth holders in this country, what that could potentially mean for this space.


So as you start to think about the confluence of what you've been doing in the vegan investment space, your role as a woman leader with these other women who have been driving in impact, and thinking about all of the positive implications for the field in particular, as all of these issues start to come together for women who are leading in this space, thinking about the issues you mentioned around equity, around gender, around potentially how those issues tie back to the food system or animal rights, how excited are you about the role of women as you see the space further developing? Where do you see that maybe women are or aren't as present as you would like to see?


Well, I mean, even within the animal rights movement we see that women don't have a central role as we might think, given we make up the majority of vegetarians and animal-- and vegans, and animal rights activists. But in leadership, there are many. But men seem to have the louder voices, and louder-- higher visibility. And I think the same is true in the vegan investing. Certainly, there's several women involved. But the larger funds are run by men.


So I'm excited to see the women that are in the field. Women in finance is obviously a minority. But I'm excited to see that there are so many women that are dipping their feet in the water. And part of the goal with Next Wave and mobilizing women was because we really wanted to invest in and help scale women-led companies so that there would be-- they would be successful women entrepreneurs. And then they would go and then become early stage investors, board members, advisors, mentors, co-founders of new companies, and really build the leadership capacity in this ecosystem.


And I see the same thing in the vegan world as well, in terms of vegan companies. Certainly, most of the large ones are still run by men. But I think we just need to be more purposeful and strategic in investing in women and people of color so that there is more racial and gender equity in the space.


No, it's a really great point. And I think if we dig into that even a little bit deeper, you know, where does that investment then take us, right? Why is it so important that women take up more space in this conversation, people of color are so present in this conversation? And the kind of lasting change that can be created-- I mean, you just alluded to some of that-- is the gender lens investing, or women investing in women and girls.


And then, what is likely to happen as women invest in women and girls? And similarly now, in the vegan space-- you know, I suppose it could be easy to think about investing in one company. But the way that you describe this ecosystem, as you put it-- which I think is a great way to think about it-- it really is a systemic shift, right? It's really feeding into a systems change.


Well, and you come from microfinance as well. And the whole thesis behind this was women were great investments, because they used their wealth to then invest in their families and their communities. And investments in men weren't necessarily as good of investments. And so it's the same thing here.


We really need to-- yeah, as you said, the systems and structures that have led us to where we are is not working for any of us, right? It's destroying the planet. It is creating wealth inequality to the likes that we've never seen. And you know, what are we leaving for the next generation? I mean, we really need to stop looking at the business world as profit at all cost, and really shift to a more sustainable and equitable path forward, or none of us will be around in the next-- in a few generations.


Yeah. When you think about what it's going to take to make that happen, I mean, who's missing from these conversations? As you were mapping out where the most-- the wealth, or the decisions-- not the wealth itself-- but the decisions around wealth, and how that wealth is deployed maybe sitting now as opposed to where that's shifting, who-- as we think about who's missing from the conversation, who's missing from the table?


And you mentioned people of color. And I think we both acknowledge, the two of us here today, still a challenge. And who is at the table, and who isn't for this conversation? How do we help to design more of an inclusive conversation and solution set? And what do you see out there that's developing in that regard?


Yeah, no, it's a great point. You know, when you look at the amount of capital we're talking about-- I think it was like $715 billion was invested in impact investing in 2020. But by 2030, women are expected to control $30 trillion. And so if we have control of that, I mean that is so powerful. I mean, think about that.


But when we think about, for example, the income inequality, we make, what, $0.82 on the dollar compared to men? And yet men retire, I think, with three times what women do, even though we save more. We tend to not invest in riskier things, and men do. And their wealth accumulates. And so I think one thing that we need to do is really get women more comfortable with money and investing.


The whole model behind Next Wave Impact was really a learning by doing model with a low investment threshold to get in, mentoring, education and training, a diversified portfolio with your investment. And so it was really getting women comfortable to learn how to do it and to build a diversified portfolio-- so I think more things like that. For the Vegan Investors group, one reason we did this was because a lot of companies, when they're raising money, they require a minimum of $50,000 to $100,000 of investment per person. And so some-- many angel investors, like me, don't have the kind of wealth to be investing $100,000 into every single company. And so how do you build a portfolio with those kinds of minimums?


And so with Vegan Investors, we put together special purpose vehicles to aggregate smaller investors. So you can put $5,000, or $10,000, or $20,000 into a company. You put it into this SPV. And then, we aggregate a number of people into it and then make an investment of $100,000 or $200,000 with this special purpose vehicle, which is an LLC. And that way, people can come in at a lower amount and build a diversified portfolio over time with a reasonable amount of money.


Well, that-- no, that's a great explanation. And I was going to make you go back to SPV and define it. So thank you for doing that.


So when you think about-- I mean, there's no shortage of creative, innovative, business ideas-- solutions, entrepreneurs. I feel as though we've started to see with Vegan Women's Summit, with other groups that have been kind of cropping up and presenting the world with these incredible opportunities to invest in women as entrepreneurs, as business leaders, as sector leaders, it doesn't feel like there's a shortage of investment opportunities. And it doesn't feel like there is a shortage in the market to fund these opportunities.


And yet somehow, we're still building that bridge for those two to meet. And I think the work that you're doing in that regard is remarkable. And so thank you for-- not only for doing it, but for bringing it to us today, and for talking about some of the partners who you've been working with to accomplish that. Because it's something that feels like, in many ways, should be readily achievable. But maybe we're just-- we're not paying attention.


It's certainly achievable. But, yeah, I mean it takes-- yeah, it takes purposeful action. You have to be really strategic. You know, when we-- with my pilot fund, we really didn't have that many women of color. And so we had to be really purposeful and strategic, and recruit women of color to be in the fund, because they don't just necessarily just show up. Our networks are often people like us. And so a lot of white people don't have many people of color in their networks. And so really being strategic, and reaching out, and being more proactive in building this community to make it more inclusive.


Yeah, well that's a great action step to kind of lead us into the types of things that our audience can do, each of us as individuals, whether we're one individual, whether we are a business owner, whether we're on the board of an organization or a company. How we think about accountability, what we put ourselves on the hook for, whether it's today or at some point in the near future, what are some of the action steps that we can each take?


And I wonder if we could go back to kind of your initial framing of the different asset classes, and kind of think about what are some potential action steps, whether that's starting with where you keep your money, and what you say to your bank, or your advisor, or the person who's telling you this might not create returns for you, or sorry, you can't find that here, all the way through maybe some of the more institutional opportunities and plans.


Sure. Well, I think as individuals, or even, say, we're on the board of a non-profit, I mean, one of the reasons I wanted to join Loving Arms was because, you know, you hold a lot of money in an endowment or a fund for a safeguard. For your operating expenses, you need to have a buffer. And so where is that money being held? Is it at one of the big banks? Or is it somewhere that's aligned with your values?


So certainly, as individuals and/or organizations or businesses, where we bank is a huge-- can have a huge impact. So looking at things like local banks, community development financial institutions, credit unions, et cetera, is one of the biggest things that we could do. Another asset class is cash alternatives, things that have pretty liquid-- that have liquidity but aren't cash. And so things like, for example, CNote is a woman-led company that lends to CDFIs, which then lend to women and minority businesses. But it's a quarterly liquidity. So there's options like that.


So there's a book called Activate Your Money by Janine Firpo, who's one of our investment committee members with Next Wave Impact, who actually wrote a book about this. Across all asset classes, how do you move your assets into impact across all of your asset classes? So we talk about cash, and we just talked about alternatives. Fixed income is like bonds. There's bonds that have impact. You can do municipal bonds locally. You can do green bonds. So there's lots of options there.


And then we talked about public equities in the stock market. You can pick stocks of individual companies, that are aligned with your values, that are either doing environmental things or solving societal challenges. Or you can invest into ETFs or mutual funds that bring together a number of different companies that are in those spaces. So there's lots of options there.


Private equity, we talked about. That's like angel investing and venture capital. Again, there's this burgeoning number of funds and angel groups that are impact focused. And so you can invest in individual companies yourself, or you can invest in funds that are doing it. When you think about your retirement, I mean, a lot of the 401(k) options are very limited in terms of choices. But for self-directed IRAs or SEP IRAs or individual retirement accounts, there's more and more opportunities to have a impact lens to your investment.


If your 401(k) doesn't, it's worth going to your employer and really pushing them to really consider the option-- putting options out there. You mentioned this giving up return. There's so much research that shows that using ESG, Environmental Social Governance, impact investing does not mean you have to give up returns. In fact, a lot of the studies show that they are at or better returns than more traditional investments. And so don't buy that from your financial advisor or your 401(k) manager. The evidence is very clear that you can do well by investing in companies doing good.


Wow, that's such an important point. And I think bringing us back to the question about the big banks, if you've got your money in a big bank, there's absolutely opportunity within the big bank with-- whether it's the individual account or the financial advisor, there's opportunity there. Because, as you mentioned, these opportunities have become more accessible, more profitable. There isn't a reason now, within that banking framework, why that-- why there shouldn't be an opportunity there, is I think what I'm hearing you saying, too.


Exactly.


We talked a lot about the investing piece. And we've talked or touched a little bit on just kind of charitable giving generally, and how sometimes people think about them in different buckets. But back to your point just quickly, because I know a lot of the folks who join us for these conversations have been really generous supporters of Farm Sanctuary, of a number of charitable organizations.


Some of them have supported us financially, whether that's outright. Maybe it's through a donor advised fund. Maybe it's through a foundation. But just to your point of bringing these two pieces back together again, and making that point that those underlying assets of those charitable vehicles, too, that feeling of wanting to align-- and I do need to read this book that you're recommending-- but aligning your values with the assets, aligning the values of the charitable institution with that investment mandate I think is-- it's a really important one.


And I think one thing that's really relatively new is that you can now use your donor advised fund for impact investing. So you can actually make impact investments with your donor advised fund. So you can invest, do well, and that money goes back into your DAF, and you become-- it grows in value and you can do more.


Mm-hmm. And for anyone who's listening who maybe is not as familiar with a donor advised fund, you want to give your two minutes on what a donor advised fund is?


Yeah, I mean, I guess the simplest quick summary is that instead of doing like a family foundation or something, you can put together a donor advised fund by donating money into, like, Fidelity or someone like that. But there's actually several groups out there, like Tides, and Impact Assets, and Triskeles Foundation where you can actually put your money, and they hold it, and then you can invest or donate from the donor advised fund. So it's just a more streamlined way of doing it rather than having a foundation.


Yeah, right, so like a charitable giving account of sorts that you could put money into, and that money could be invested for impact while you decide where ultimately it goes.


Right, and in a lot-- in some places like Fidelity and others, you're limited in what you can do with it in terms of investing. But groups like Investor Flow and Impact Assets, you can actually have a wide variety of impact investment opportunities that you can do for investing rather than just philanthropy. I mean, obviously, philanthropy is huge and needed, and, you know, so much good is funded through philanthropy. But it can also be used in innovative ways like as a first loss reserve to leverage more private sector money. And so there's creative ways to use it that can be longer lasting and have, also, a return.


OK, so if we recap-- I mean, I think about this. And I'm thinking of-- we have, I'm sure, a blended audience who is listening to this today. If we think about just, again, kind of the role of women, and women and wealth, and, to your point, philanthropy and investing being such important components of contributing to the evolution of the kind of world that we want to see, but all of the individual actions that one can take, whether that is using your voice to advocate, whether that's putting your dollars where you think you feel most comfortable with your dollars spending the night, as you say, which I love, to the different kinds of ways that you can drive change and make decisions at the institutional level that really do look to capitalize systemic change, I think you've provided us a lot of great avenues for that today.


And I think it's important to remember, if we all do it, and we all demand that groups hold-- they're working for us. So where you're talking about financial advisors, if they don't want to impact invest, should you dump them and go somewhere else? Yes, they should be-- they're working for you.


And you want to make an impact with your dollars. And if they can't help you, there are plenty of advisors that can. But I think if all of us do it, and we demand products and services in the impact space, it will increase the transition far more rapidly. And as we all know, we are a planet on fire, and we need to rapidly change this trajectory or we're not going to survive as a species.


No, that is a-- it's a tough and important statement, but is actually a perfect segue to my last question for you today, which is we're-- Farm Sanctuary as an organization, we're celebrating our 35th anniversary this year. And I think about everything that's happened over the last 35 years, and building to this point, and as we think about the impact investing space today-- all of the developments that have happened.


But given the issues that you just cited, and some of the values I know we share, and some of the vision I know we share, if you look out another 35 years, and you think about some of the changes, some of the ways that you hope that this field will evolve, or some of the changes that you hope you'll see with regard to shifts in the development of the sector, and I guess loosely interpreted of the sector, what do you hope that you will see? What do you hope is going to be driving us toward this more just, more compassionate world?


I'm sure a lot of the viewers are familiar with cultured meat, or clean meat, and this meat alternative that is actually meat but grown in labs rather than from animals. And, you know, there's a lot of investment dollars going towards this. I actually have invested in one of the clean meat companies. But I tend to focus on plant-based and alternatives that remove animals from the supply chain.


But this cultured meat, dairy, et cetera, I think is definitely going to be part of the future. And I think it's probably going to start with-- well, I mean, there's already a cultured chicken on the market in Singapore. But I think in the US, it's going to probably start with dog and cat food that's cultured meat, and then expand to more products for human consumption.


In 35 years, I could see the necessity of farming animals completely gone. And that would be an ideal outcome for me, because I know future generations-- if we survive as a species, future generations are going to look at us and the factory farming, and the environmental conditions, and the cruelty that has resulted with just horror. And they'll be wondering why we did this, and how we could have perpetuated it, and why we didn't solve this sooner. So in 35 years, I think it's entirely possible that we could be factory farm free. And those that want to have meat can eat their cultured meat, and those of us that want plant-based, healthier alternatives will be doing that.


But I think, yeah, the gender and racial equity piece is so important to me. And I really feel like, if we're going to survive as a cohesive society in the future, that we are going to have to solve the racial, and ethnic, and gender dysfunction that we have-- that we're currently facing. And it's this legacy that we inherited. But it is something that we-- I feel like there's finally recognition of-- that the issues. But we really do need to find solutions, and create a more just, and sustainable, and equitable environment.


And I think women are going to be a huge part of that, as are people of color. Because I feel like we are more driven to racial and gender equity, because we are living in a patriarchy, and a racist world. So I feel like we are more driven to create the change that we want to see. So, yeah, I really-- I mean, it's imperative that we solve these things. And I think women and people of color are going to play a big role. And we need to, because the way it is now is completely broken. And we can't be satisfied with that.


Well, the work that you're doing-- and I know some of the peers that you mentioned, the focus on equity in that work, in designing solutions that are more equitable. You know, I get so excited, and I'm sure that the audience is so inspired hearing you say that in 35 years we could be factory farm free. And I think the second piece of what you're saying is we have to get there in an equitable and sustainable way. We have to design this in a way that really builds what we want to see, and doesn't just eliminate what we don't want to see, which I think is incredibly inspiring.


So thank you for sharing that. And thank you for sharing with us all of the ways that each of us can be a part of that. Because that's part of the inspiration, too, is knowing how to engage, and understanding the importance of shifting dollars and shifting wealth toward this purpose, and doing so in a way that does create and promote more of that equity, and designs that more inclusive, more sustainable, more just, more compassionate landscape that I know we're also passionate about.


Thank you, Alicia, so much for having this conversation with me today. It is such a pleasure. And I've loved introducing-- for those in our audience who have not had the opportunity to hear from you before, I'm so excited to be able to bring your voice to them. You are such an important voice and leader in this movement.


Be that the animal rights movement, be that veganism, be that impact investing, you have been leading this dialogue and this conversation for so long. And it's wonderful to see you out in front of this conversation, and helping so many of us to learn all of the different things that we can do to play a role, no matter what size in this movement. So thank you again for your time today, and for all of your leadership.


Well, thank you so much for having me. I so appreciate it, and so appreciate what you do for all of the animals and the world as well. And we need more people like you, so thank you.


Wonderful, all right. Well, with that, we are going to close out today. And I'm going to hand it back to Nzinga.


Thank you so much for joining us. Below this video, you'll find more information on Alicia Robb, and links to the many resources mentioned in this program. We hope to have you again at our next Sanctuary Speaker Series.

Welcome to Sanctuary Speaker Series. My name is Nzinga Young, and I'm the senior manager of events and experience here at Farm Sanctuary. Today we're speaking with best selling author Jonathan Safran Foer, who's written Everything Is Illuminated, Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close, Here I Am, and Eating Animals. His work has received numerous awards and has been translated into 36 languages. And he lives in Brooklyn, New York.


Jonathan will be in conversation with Farm Sanctuary board chair Emily Deschanel, an actor and television producer best known for her role in the Fox series, Bones. As a consistent voice for farm animals, she's raised public awareness on the animal cruelty and environmental degradation perpetuated by factory farming, as well as the health benefits of adopting a vegan diet. It's my pleasure to introduce Jonathan Safron Foer and Emily Deschanel.


Thank you. Thank you, Nzinga. And thank you, Jonathan, for talking with me, with Farm Sanctuary, today. First of all, how are you doing during these crazy times?


Well, every day is a little bit different. Today happens to be a snow day in Brooklyn. So immediately before signing on to talk to you, I dropped my boys at the park to sled. And it was funny. We got this really lovely note from their principal because all the kids were nervous now that they've unfortunately had to master Zoom that we would never have snow days again because they now know how to go to school without going to school.


And the principal sort of anticipated that and sent this lovely letter about finding ways-- finding little pockets for kids to be kids and kids just to have a joyful experience in the middle of all of this, what not only kids feel, but their parents feel even more, which is stress and just the fragility of the world right now. So today it happens to be a really lovely day.


That's amazing. So funny that you're saying this, because I literally had a conversation with Megan, who's the CEO of Farm Sanctuary, yesterday about, will there ever be snow days for kids anymore? And then I saw some headline about a principal saying something like-- I wonder if it was your school's principal talking about letting kids take the day off even if they could be on Zoom or whatever. It's so important.


I realize growing up in Los Angeles, we did not have snow days. But they do now have fire day-- we've had fire days because of smoke. And when I was a kid, we did have riot days.


Yeah.


[INTERPOSING VOICES]


--offer as many opportunities for having fun.


No, they don't. And I'm glad your kids are enjoying the snow in Brooklyn before it gets all dirty. I feel like snow in the city always gets dirty pretty fast.


That's absolutely true.


That's awesome to have that peace of joy in the middle of all this, in the middle of a park in Brooklyn. I love that. I love that. Well, so we're first-- we're here to talk about We Are The Weather, which was an incredible book. But first I want to ask you a question about one of your previous books, Eating Animals, because you actually visited Farm Sanctuary. That was one of the first places when you were researching the book.


And I'm wondering if you can tell us about your time there and how it influenced your writing of the book and--


Yeah. In fact, I don't think I've ever even talked about this before. And I could be wrong. I don't think I ended up writing about it in the book. But the first visit when-- to take a step back, I'd never written nonfiction before. And I didn't really have a desire to write nonfiction. I was not good at writing essays in college. I didn't like it.


And I really felt like I'd sort of-- with novels, I'd found something that gave me just enough pleasure and I was good enough at to make a life out of. So my desire to write the book wasn't born out of anything having to do with my profession or even my identity as a writer. I just had this thing that had been eating away at me since I was a kid.


And I think that doesn't make me unique. I think most kids have this instinct, which is not even in using terms like right and wrong, but a more childlike term of just weird. It's just weird that we eat animals, you know?


Weird. Yeah.


And it's weird that we eat animals, because it's so out of keeping with all of the other ways we talk about and treat animals. Like probably everybody watching this, I grew up-- my parents would read me stories at bedtime that had animals as heroes. I had stuffed animals that I would fall asleep with. We would have pets that we were told to treat a certain way.


But then there was this other activity that we would partake in which is so different and would seem to me to be the opposite. Like, instead of being thoughtful around them and being generous in our assumptions about what they might feel or be capable of experiencing, we would kill them and eat their bodies. And again, just because a kid finds something weird doesn't mean that it's wrong. I thought sex was incredibly weird when I was a kid. There aren't any moral implications about that.


But it was when I was nine years old, I had a babysitter who wouldn't eat the chicken that my older brother and I were eating. I asked her why. And she said, I don't want to hurt anything unless I have to. I don't want to hurt anything unnecessarily. And so that's the problem. That was the problem that kind of stuck with me when she said it, because as a nine-year-old, I just couldn't think of any response other than, yeah, me too. Isn't everybody that way?


There are a lot of things that-- a lot of revelations I had as a nine-year-old that were proven to be silly or naive or just wrong. That one I never really got over. I never did think of a good response to what she said. I don't want to hurt things unnecessarily. And by the time I was a writer and I'd written, I guess, two novels at that point, I was then about-- my first son was about to be born. And it was just kind of like a confluence of a lot of things in my life that made me feel like there's an opportunity to get a little bit of resolution with this problem.


Like, it doesn't feel good to carry around cognitive dissonance. It doesn't feel good to live your life in a way that you know doesn't quite feel right. So I wanted to figure out what would feel right. And the first stop I made on that journey was to Farm Sanctuary, because I grew up in Washington D.C. And then I lived in New York ever since. And I just have not spent a lot of time around farm animals at all.


And my understanding of Farm Sanctuary's mission is that it's not actually to rescue animals. In a way, that's a very nice side effect of its mission. But its mission is to give people exposure to animals so that they can see and feel the similarities and the differences, because that kind of exposure I think inspires care. It's true from encounters with other kinds of people and it's true with encounters with other kinds of living things.


So I spent a day there. And the interesting thing is, it didn't-- I don't know if this is interesting or not, but it's true. It didn't make me love those animals. Like, I didn't want to spend more time with cows. I didn't really want to spend more time with pigs. But what it did do was make it undeniable that their experience was significant and that it mattered to me.


I think oftentimes the idea that we should care about animals is intentionally distorted to imply, oh, you think animals are the same as humans, or you think animals deserve every right that humans deserve, when to me it's a question of, what is baseline decency? Like, what are the things that we can--


Not murdering, for instance.


Yeah. And certainly not keeping a pregnant pig in a cage so small she can't turn around. You don't have to love an animal to say, that's wrong. I don't want to be any part of that. So yeah, I was really grateful to Farm Sanctuary for having initiated what was often a very painful, actually, journey into the world. And it was painful because the world is-- when it comes to food is a very, very cruel place.


And it was painful for me, too, because I had to confront my own hypocrisies and my own doubts.


Yeah. It's so interesting to say you didn't want to spend time with the animals, but you still cared about not hurting them. And I think a lot of people feel that way. I mean, some people will go to Farm Sanctuary or go someplace where they meet animals and will just have such an amazing experience and love those animals. But even if you don't love those animals and want to take them home, you know, to your apartment in Brooklyn, I think most people would walk away saying, like, I don't want to kill those animals just so I can eat this particular thing, or I don't want to have those animals live a cruel life. I don't think that's fair, even if I don't really care about chickens or pigs or cows or whatever it is.


And I also think it's so interesting. And I loved it-- or I thought of it and you're just reminding me-- when reading Eating Animals that it was a babysitter for me who first put the idea of vegetarianism in my mind. When I was a kid, I remember my sister had-- there was somebody at her birthday party that said they wouldn't have a hot dog because they were vegetarian. And I remember thinking, oh my God, that's so annoying.


But then I had a babysitter who wouldn't eat-- we had a tomato sauce but my parents put something-- some meat in it or whatever. And a babysitter wouldn't eat it. And it was the first time where somebody who I really loved and respected said, I'm not going to eat that. Same kind of thing. I don't know what wording she used, but it was the same kind of thing, like, I don't want to hurt something.


And it kind of planted a seed. It took me a long time to stop eating meat and all that. But it was one of the first seeds in there. So I don't know, I really connected to that when reading Eating Animals, because I had a similar experience.


Did that babysitter-- like, I really often go back to this scene in my life because I think real change is pretty rare. Like, in my life, real change-- like when I take a habit that's ingrained, especially if it's one that I enjoy-- and most people do enjoy eating meat, otherwise why would they do it? Change is really rare. So I'm always interested in what causes it.


In my case-- and I would love to hear about yours-- she didn't lecture me. She didn't make an argument. I don't even think she would have mentioned it if I hadn't asked her why she was refraining. She really, really just lead by example.


Yeah.


And I've met an awful lot of people who try a different approach, and say, why are you eating that? Are you crazy? Don't you know that meat is murder? And that just really doesn't work for me.


No. I don't think it works for almost anybody. I mean, even when I became vegetarian, I started the animal rights club with my friend in high school. And she was the person going around going into everyone's face and they had a hot dog, being like, that's murder. That's bad. That's disgusting what you're eating.


And it never had the effect that she wanted. And by the way, like, a year later, she was eating meat again. So it was so funny. She was so hardcore and so judgmental of other people. And that's never going to-- I mean, maybe once in a while that changes people's perspectives. But I'm always amazed, having been vegan for-- I've been vegan for, like, 26 years at this point, how people will sometimes tell me, oh, you just saying you were vegan made me go and research things. And now I don't eat meat anymore, or I eat less meat.


So I know, I agree. It also feels more comfortable for me to be like, maybe because confrontation is really not comfortable. Some people thrive on that, but I don't. If necessary, I guess I'll be OK with confrontation. But it has to be really necessary. But yeah, it's interesting how that doesn't work.


I want to get into that, too. Well, maybe we can just talk about that now. And that is, you talk in We Are the Weather about how if your friend's friend's friend, for instance, quits smoking, for instance, you will quit smoking, or you're much more likely to quit smoking. Or if your friend's friend's friend is obese, then you're much more likely to be obese.


And I just think about that with eating animals, with eating meat and dairy, or just also the other high impact things you mention for the environment-- using your car less, et cetera. You know, how do we create that kind of network of people doing that to influence other people without being in people's faces yelling at them, shaming them, making them feel terrible, which usually has the opposite effect? How do we build that without-- I know I struggle with that too.


I'm not a social media person. But some social media people will be all about just talking about making all these changes and how you have to do it, or is it better to just live your life and live as an example? I don't know. I'm putting this all on you. How do we do-- how do we create that network?


I don't know. I mean, I have different identities. And I do it differently with each identity. So as just a person in the world, I never, ever even bring up this subject with anybody. I only make my choices. And I find that oftentimes-- I mean, this is much less the case now, both because I'm older and I've known the people around me for a long time, but also because I have written about it.


But it is amazing how often just the subject arises. If you go to a restaurant and you're ordering and you say, does this have chicken stock in it or whatever? People just notice. They really pay attention, even if they're not aware of paying attention. But we live in a world that, for better and for worse-- although almost always for worse-- is aware of our choices.


If somebody becomes a vegetarian tomorrow, it's a matter of days before Google knows that, before Apple knows that, before Facebook knows that, before Amazon knows that. There are all these networks of information collecting, which gives us actually a different-- our choices have a different kind of power than they would have before. They really radiate.


Oh yeah. I hadn't thought about it affecting it in that way. Yeah.


I think it's especially true for young people and social media. You know, American college campuses now, there are more vegetarians than Catholics. When I was in college, there were many more vegetarians than would admit to it, because it was kind of weird. You wouldn't want to lead with that. And now many more people admit to it than actually are, because it's become this aspirational identity, like something that's just in the atmosphere.


When I write, it's really different, because I can't-- I'm making a choice to say something publicly. And you know, no matter how gentle or unassuming I tried-- or conversational I try to be-- and I try really hard when I'm writing about this stuff, because it makes people so defensive. The truth is, I am making an argument. There's just no way around it. And the hardest thing-- Eating Animals was a very, very hard book to write in a lot of ways.


The industry is so secretive that even to have access to what farming is actually like, you have to put yourself in some really scary situations. But the hardest thing about the book was not that research. It was finding a tone that would work. I didn't want to write a book that would make me feel good. I didn't want to write a book where people would say, hey, great book. Very persuasive argument.


I wanted to write a book that would change people and be helpful for them in their lives. And striking the balance of not saying too little or too much is really, really tricky.


You know, PETA is one of the most successful social justice organizations around. They persuade about one in five people. They probably turn off four out of five people. One out of five actually makes them really successful and really important. And I am glad that they exist. I'm actually not one in the one in five people that they reached when I was younger. And in a world in which 99.9% of the animals that we eat in America come from factory farms, in a world in which climate change is a ticking time bomb, we just don't have forever to figure this out.


We need to get to the other four out of five people really, really quickly and to try to meet them where they are rather than assuming that we can pull them over to where we are. So I gave an awful lot of thought to what-- obviously there's no one answer because there's no one person. Different people are reached in such different ways. But I tried to think about where what felt true to me could intersect with what feels true to another person, somebody who didn't already agree with me.


I love how honest you are in all your books, but in We Are the Weather talking about even eating meat while you're promoting eating animals. Even eating meat in an airport, you know it's coming from the worst factory farm, right? You know, I think it's really important for people to be honest in that way. I think that reaches people, as well.


And for someone like me who became vegan 26 years ago or whatever it was, a long time ago, and I kind of never looked back, that alienates people, too. Like even my own sister told me for so long she kind of thought, oh, you know, you're so hardcore vegan, I thought it was all or nothing. And now instead of being like, oh I'm mostly vegetarian or vegan, and I'll sometimes eat other animal products, that makes such a difference. And I mean, that can make such a difference for the environment, obviously, for animals, for your health.


So I think you talking about your own struggles with that is really important to reach people. I think it makes an impact.


I hope so. I mean, I feel a real-- beyond feeling embarrassment, like admitting to my own hypocrisies, I feel--


We all have hypocrisies, though.


We really do. I feel a real tension. Like, on the one hand, I think, OK, what is it that we want to do? We want to reduce the amount of cruelty and violence and destruction. And I think everybody agrees. That's not like a liberal position or a conservative position or an old or young or black or white or religious or secular. That's just, those are baseline human values. Everybody wants to reduce the amount of cruelty. Everybody wants to reduce the amount of destruction.


Obviously, we see how those things are happening in different ways and we value them in different ways. But it's a really good starting point to acknowledge. And so what is the best way and the quickest way to reduce as much as possible? So for example, if you were to ask, what are the odds that in five years half of America will be vegetarian? I would say 0. There's no chance that that's going to happen.


What are the odds that in five years half of the meals eaten in America will be vegetarian? I would say I actually think that could happen. I really do think that could happen. They're totally different ways of looking at it. But in terms of the effect, in terms-- like, reducing the amount of suffering and reducing the amount of destruction, they're exactly the same.


So there's a use in shifting away from identity and toward outcomes. But the tension is, there's also a part of me that I actually don't talk about a lot, because it makes me uncomfortable, that thinks this is just wrong. This is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. And we should be honest about that.


And when we look back at historical wrongs, we don't look well upon people who are flexible about them or who were relativistic about them. Cruelty is wrong. So I have found it-- both personally, but also as a public person-- difficult to walk the line of what in my heart feels right and wrong, but also how to get to the important ends as quickly as possible.


Yeah. You bring up looking at history-- looking at how-- in the book, at least, you talk about how we'll be seen in the future. Like, were we people saying, no, we're going to do something about the environment, not just do we care about the environment, but do we want to do something? And I don't know if you want to talk about this, but in the book about-- I think the name is Frankfurter and [? Kasky? ?] One of them has come from Europe and has come to talk and tell people here about what has-- what's going on with the Nazis.


And is it Frankfurter who's-- is he a judge? Now I'm sorry.


No, no, no. No problem.


I don't have notes with me about this particular thing.


Yeah, Frankfurter was a Supreme Court justice.


Right. He was a Supreme Court justice.


Karski was a young Polish in the-- he was a Catholic in the Polish underground.


And he went undercover, right, to see what was really happening to Jews?


Exactly. By the way, you should-- on YouTube, you can find him telling this story. And it's unbelievably powerful. He's a really charismatic personality and a great storyteller. And he gets very emotional when he tells it. So it's K-A-R-S-K-I.


OK.


But yeah, the scene was he came to America to try to persuade American leaders to do something. And one of the first people he met was Felix Frankfurter, who was a Supreme Court justice and a Jew himself.


Right. Right.


Frankfurter-- excuse me, Karski presented all of the testimonies and evidence and, here's what's going on in the Warsaw ghetto. Here's how tall the wall is. Here's what's going on in the extermination camps. This is how people are killed. This is how many. And Frankfurter paced the room. And then he said, you know, I have to be honest. I can't believe what you're saying.


And Karski's colleague, who was with them, said, how can you say that this guy is lying? Why would he lie? Why would he have gone to all this trouble, put himself at all this risk, to lie? And Frankfurter said, I didn't say that he was lying. I said that I am unable to believe him. And then he says this beautiful thing. He said, my mind and my heart are made in such a way that I can't believe him.


And I wrote about that because I know I have that's-- my mind and heart were made in such a way that I find it hard to believe things that I know. I know that climate change is happening. Like, the great majority of Americans-- there's actually a misunderstanding about how political this issue is. In fact, 76% of Americans wanted the US to stay in the Paris Climate Accords, including the majority of Republicans.


I know it's not as partisan as people think it is. It really isn't. And I think there's some number like that, also, of Americans also believe in climate change and believe that humans are responsible for it, right?


Oh, absolutely. Yeah.


Like 60 or 70 or more, right?


More Americans-- no, hold on. Wait. I'm about to screw this up. More Americans believe in the existence of Bigfoot than deny the existence of human caused climate change. That's what it was.


I love that. I love that.


That probably just says something about our relationship to Bigfoot. I mean, there's a difference. And this is what I write about in the book. And this is really why I wrote the book. There's a difference between knowing something and really knowing it.


And really believing it, believing it enough to act on it, right? I mean, it's the same thing-- I read all the statistics in your book, which are horrifying. And you hear about and you read about what's happening in the environment. I want to talk about this in that-- OK, so you wrote this book before the pandemic. But I read it since the pandemic took hold.


So I kept thinking-- you write about during World War II everyone comes together for the sake of the war effort, right? People ration. People turn off their lights. Productivity goes up 96 or something percent. They build ships in five days. And yet, we can't do that for something that's for the whole Earth. We're destroying the whole Earth. We see it as over there. The climate change is over there. It's not affecting us, even though World War II was not fought on our ground, right? As Americans, unless you were in Hawaii, you weren't actually part of-- you weren't at risk of being hit by a bomb, really.


But we all gathered together. And my parents talk about that. Like, during the war, everyone came together and did all these things and sacrificed. And yet, you talk about how we don't do it for the environment. And so I kept thinking while reading it about COVID and how-- I would vacillate, because I feel like in one sense, to everyone comes together and lots of people are wearing masks and being socially distanced and taking it seriously.


And then we're also so divided as a country and fighting. So sometimes when I think about us fighting-- and that's a pandemic that's literally affecting every human on the planet that really is here, that we all know people who've had it. We know people who have died of it. And yet people are still fighting. We did come together in some ways. So I think if we can't all come together wholly for a pandemic, how do we come together for the environment, which seems like it's so far off, even though we're almost at a point where we hit that positive-- what is it called? Positive--


A feedback loop?


Feedback loop. Positive feedback loop, where we're at a point of no return, essentially? You know, it's hard-- I'm bringing it back to the Frankfurter Karski thing, where you know it's true, but it's just hard to believe. And I feel the same way, because it's just so horrific. It's hard to believe it's real, just like Frankfurter felt like, this is too horrific to actually believe that this is actually happening.


And we want to look-- we want our ancestors to-- I mean, our children's children, our grandchildren to look back at us and think we are a good ancestor to them. I don't know. This is not even a question. There's so many things to talk about here, I guess. But how do we come together when we can't come together for even a pandemic?


I don't know. You know, it's interesting. Imagine if, let's say, Biden-- OK, imagine if Biden said there's this pandemic. And we need Americans to wear masks. And we need to shut down a certain amount of the economy, otherwise people in Bangladesh are going to get coronavirus. You're going to be fine. Don't worry about yourselves. But people in Bangladesh.


There's no chance we would do that. And if he were to simply say, just wash your hands. Just be good about washing your hands, otherwise people in Bangladesh are going to get coronavirus, I don't think we would even wash our hands. I think the response that we've had-- because that would require a kind of leap of empathy. And those leaps of empathy are really hard to make.


It's hard to see how it affects other people, right? I mean, it's so far away it's easy to put in the back of your mind. And I'm very curious to hear if you disagree. But my sense is, almost all of our response to coronavirus has been inspired by personal fear. Like, I don't want to die. I don't want to get this. I don't want my kids to get this. I don't want my friends to get this. So I'm going to be really safe.


Maybe there's a tiny aspect of it that has to do with something communal or protecting our neighbors.


Or yeah, it's protecting our loved ones. I think--


But that's a kind of selfishness,


[INTERPOSING VOICES]


I'll be fine. But there's selfishness. Like, not killing your parents is also selfish, right? Like, not killing a stranger is a little different. But I agree. I do agree. I think most of it is selfish. If it didn't feel like it would affect us and our loved ones, I agree. I don't know how many people would actually do something about it.


Yeah. So there's virtually no chance-- I mean, it really approaches 0-- that anybody you know is going to die because of climate change. We are lucky. And we as Americans are very lucky, both because of America's affluence, but also just America's geography. There are already many, many people dying because of climate change. In order to solve this problem or even to put ourselves in a position of being able to solve the problem, we have to either make this leap of empathy to care about people who are halfway around the planet, or simply keep people in the future.


You know, you're not going to die of climate change and your kids aren't, but it's not inconceivable that your grandkids would, or your great grandkids. So we have to either find that emotion somehow-- and I actually don't believe that we will be able to do that-- or we have to just establish habits that allow us not to have to think so much.


So if you go to a store and there's something that you like, do you have an internal debate about whether to shoplift or not? You probably don't. You probably don't require any kind of memory of the social contract. You probably don't need to have like a well of emotions about taking money from the pocket of the shopkeeper. Probably you don't steal because you just don't steal. You don't even think about it. You're just somebody who doesn't steal.


Right now--


I also have the means to pay for things, too. So I'm sure it would be different if I didn't have the means to pay for it, right?


Well, when it comes to the environment, we do have the means. But specifically when talking about food, there is like-- the most common response to the idea that we should eat differently because of climate change is, well, that's an elitist argument. Like, sure, it's nice for you to say. But how can you ask somebody who has a hard time getting by as it is that they have to indulge this elitist diet, and so on and so forth?


And it's just not true. It's not true at all. Harvard Medical School did a study at the end of 2018 and found that it's about $750 a year cheaper to eat as a vegetarian. People who make less than $35,000 a year are about three times as likely to be a vegetarian as people who make more than $85,000 a year. And people of color are disproportionately vegetarian.


So in this case, we can do something that is less expensive that is undeniably better for our bodies and that will allow us to participate. But if we are constantly making that choice, if we're depending on having big ideas or big feelings in order to make that choice at the restaurant or at the supermarket, it's really, really hard. It's just really hard.


What we need to do is to make ourselves-- to make it more like that shoplifting scenario, where you don't do it because you just don't do it. You know, there's no internal debate at all, which is why I think having a plan is a really powerful thing, having guidelines for your life.


I did a reading, and it was actually one of the last readings I did before COVID, in Brussels. And at the end, there was a book signing. And this young couple came up and put the book in front of me. And they opened it to the page that's normally empty. And it had their handwriting all over it. And I asked what it was. And they said, well, we're going to get married in a couple of months. And we were just talking after we heard this reading. And we decided we should make a plan, because if we don't have a plan for how we're going to live our life together, then we're just going to keep doing what we've always done, because that's what people generally do.


Like we said at the beginning of the conversation, change is very hard. And so what they had written down was eat as vegetarians unless served meat at a friend's house when they feel like there's no alternative, have no more than two kids, drive no more than 1,000 miles a year, and always do car sharing. Eat vegan one day a week.


And then instead of just having me sign it, they had a line that said witness underneath. And they wanted me to sign that. And I thought it was so nice and charming. And it's interesting to see how people navigate their particular lives. And then I felt really, really embarrassed and sort of ashamed, because I realized I didn't have a plan.


I'm the guy who wrote the book. And I was on stage. And I signed afterwards. But it had never occurred to me to take these big feelings that I have, these things that I'm so certain about and care so much about, and to be really rigorous about them and to say, it's not enough to say in the year 2020 I'm going to fly less. Like, what do you actually mean when you say that?


It's not enough to say, I'm going to eat less meat. What do you actually mean? And I find that if you have a plan like that, then you become the person who just doesn't shoplift. So for me, for example-- this was obviously before the pandemic-- but I decided that I wouldn't fly for any vacations in 2020. I would fly for work, because I felt that I couldn't avoid. Other people might have looked at my life differently, but that's how I felt.


But I could-- even though it would be really difficult-- I could not fly for vacations. So then, come spring break, come summer break, I don't have to have that whole thing of like, I kind of want to do this but I know I shouldn't do this. All right, I'll just do it this one time, but I'll make up for it later in the year. Instead, I said, oh yeah, I'm the person who doesn't fly for vacation. So let's look at what the other options are.


It's amazing how giving yourself a few walls can actually make you so much freer, rather than being trapped in a cycle of your own debates with yourself.


And it's amazing how many things-- I mean, I'm just thinking where you can drive from New York. I mean, just Hudson Valley we love going-- I mean, there's so many places you can go without flying. For us, we are going-- before we were shut down-- we're not allowed to go anywhere right now. But we're going to Yosemite. There's so many places you can drive. I mean, it's a long drive, I guess you could say. But with electric cars.


But there's so many places you could go that you might not even think about that are really close by-- for instance, for vacations or whatever. How do your kids feel about that? I mean, obviously you made that decision and then the pandemic hit. How do your kids respond? And how do you talk to your kids about all of this? And I'm curious-- you're a dad of two boys. I'm a mom of two boys. So I'm just so curious-- your boys are a little older than mine. So you can talk to them even more about all this. How do you do that?


I sort of have mixed feelings about talking to them about it, because on the one hand, it is their world and I want them to be aware of what's going on. And I want to shape them to be people who care about these things. On the other hand, I want them to be kids. And I don't want them to feel an anxiety that they can't do anything much about, or to feel-- like, the sadness, the stress shouldn't be theirs right now. There's a time when it will be.


In terms of things like vacations, the truth is, first of all, as parents, you just create a culture. And your kids cannot help but be in that culture. It's like there's an old joke about two fish who run into each other one day. And one of them says, God, the water's a little warm today, don't you think? And the other one says, what the hell's water? If you're in something all the time, you're not-- that's just how it is.


So for example, my kids don't eat meat. They've never eaten meat. So they don't miss it. It's not a big deal for them, actually, at all. It's quite natural.


I don't mean to interrupt, but when my kids are all-- they don't eat meat either. And do you ever-- we haven't had it come up too much. But once in a while, they'll go over to someone's house. Is that ever an issue for them, being older and stuff? I don't know. Maybe this is more of a practical thing, snacks to bring or things like that--


First of all, I think practical things are the best things to talk about. Like, there's a--


Tangible plans. Yeah.


Yeah, that's life, you know? That's how big, spiritual things are actually resolved, just with practical decisions. No. I mean, we live in a world now-- and I live in a tiny little privileged subset of the world where it's just so common. And nobody would ever ask why you're a vegetarian anymore. My older son has had meat a few times and I think is more interested in it. My younger one is really stridently against it, and very animal rightsey. My older one is just different.


And I actually feel proud of him when he will express that desire. And times when he's eaten it, I've tried to make him feel good about it, because the most sustainable kinds of life choices-- I feel like the theme of this conversation is how hard change is. I think one way to make change stick is to make it your own, and really to find your own path, however weird and convoluted and inconsistent it is.


So I like that he articulates what his cravings are, that he articulates discomforts he might have or curiosities he might have. And the world is not going to begin or end with any one meal. But the world will begin and end with the sum of all of our decisions. So instead of putting the emphasis on perfection or hunting out each other's hypocrisies, if we help each other to get on those paths toward our own change, that feels to me like our best hope.


Yeah. And it's his own. It's his own choice. I've opened up for my kids-- like, one of my sons wants to try the dairy in something, I'm like, you can try that. That's your choice. I think they have to have ownership of it. Just like people don't respond to somebody saying, you're eating dead animals or whatever. People, if they own it, then even if he eats meat here and there but he's mostly vegetarian, he's making, still, a difference. And it's his choice. It's his life and his choice, his body. He can choose to do that. And I think that makes a huge difference.


If he's doing it only because you made him do it and he snuck it around, he snuck eating meat, and then he finally gets out of your house and he goes wild-- I don't know, maybe I'm thinking-- kids who aren't allowed to do anything, they go crazy, right? But I think that's really important.


I know we have to wrap things up soon. But one of the last things I wanted to ask you about is-- and we've kind of hit on this, is maybe you can tell people-- you talk in the book about high impact and low impact ways you can help the environment. Lots of people care about the environment and think they're doing something. It makes them feel good-- recycling or whatever. Especially now we're recycling. That's a whole other issue. But it's not happening, mostly.


You're putting a plastic thing in the recycling bin and it's nothing-- it's going to landfill. That's just one example. But you talk about high impact things versus low impact things, and how we can actually make an impact rather than just feel good about something, how we can really do the most impactful thing. So maybe you can speak on that.


Sure. I think a good starting point is just that most people want to do something.


Yes.


I don't know anybody-- I literally don't know a single person who doesn't want to participate. So that's a great starting point. And it is just a starting point. Having the feeling of wanting to participate is not the same as participating. Having the t-shirt, having the bumper sticker, the cool poster at the march, those are expressions of a desire. They're not fulfillment of that desire.


So we live in a moment, because it's such a crisis and because it's a time sensitive crisis, where we're sort of past the point of, should I do this or should I do that? Should I recycle or should I fly less? Or should I get an electric car? Or should I eat less meat? We really need to do all of them. So there are no activities that I would ever say are stupid or--


No, right?


It's just that we want to recognize that they're not equal. And this is not my opinion. It's not an argument. And it's not at all controversial. It's very, very well-established that there are four activities that we perform as individuals that matter the most that are high impact. And that's flying, driving, having kids, and eating animal products. So eating animal products is a bit different than those other three for a few reasons.


One, we have the most choice. We're least constrained. 85% of Americans drive to work. So it might be nice to say, stop driving. But it's not fair. And it's not realistic. And it's also not fair or realistic to ask people to get electric cars right now. Hopefully it will be soon. But it's not right now.


Can you talk about how there's impact-- the environmental impact with electric cars with batteries--


[INTERPOSING VOICES]


Yeah, depending on where you live and what the electrical grid is. More than half of the flights in America are taken either for work or for what are called non-leisure personal purposes, like visiting a sick relative, something like that. So we need to fly less. But it's not realistic or fair to say, stop flying tomorrow. And kids is a whole nother story-- having kids, that is.


Food is an unconstrained choice, or at least it's almost entirely unconstrained. It's the only one of those four that immediately addresses methane and nitrous oxide, which are two of the most powerful greenhouse gases. And the implications on the environment extend even beyond climate change. The UN has said that animal agriculture is one of the top two or three causes of every significant environmental problem on the planet-- locally and globally, air pollution, water pollution, deforestation, loss of biodiversity, and greenhouse gas emissions.


So it's a very, very powerful place to start. Like, if you were-- as probably many people watching this are-- somebody who has to make rent at the end of the month or a mortgage payment, and you're worried because it's going to be close, it would be silly to question how many stamps you buy in the course of a month. It would be smart to say, do we actually need this car? You want to look at the really big expenses first.


Eating is a huge expense in terms of our carbon footprints. The absolute lowest estimates that anybody uses now is that it's about 14 and 1/2% of our global greenhouse gas emissions. There are very reputable scientists who say it's closer to half of our greenhouse gas emissions. It doesn't actually matter. What matters is what the IPCC recently said, which is that we have no hope of meeting the goals of the Paris Climate Accords unless we change how we eat.


So we can't save the planet just by eating differently. But we can't save the planet without eating differently. It's not to say that we all need to become vegans or vegetarians tomorrow. But we do have to pretty dramatically change how we eat. And it's not to say that we have to make that dramatic change in a day or in a week. But we really need to start.


So I would invite anybody who is interested in this, who cares about the planet-- which is to say everybody, as far as I can tell-- to just be honest about, what's the most that you can do right now, not what's your idealistic vision of yourself. But can you say that beginning tomorrow, I'm going to refrain from eating meat on Friday? Or could you say, I'm not going to eat any animal products for lunch?


Or what is the thing, if you're being honest with yourself? And then be really rigorous about it and start and see how it feels. I don't know about you, but everyone I've met who tries to make a change based on their own values, not based on somebody else, who makes a change based on their own values, it feels good. And the feeling you get is better than the thing that you're missing. You just feel more like yourself. And there's nothing better than actually feeling like yourself or feeling like the person that you want to be.


So I think we should shift away from even the words vegan, vegetarian toward thinking, OK, I'm a human being in this moment of crisis. There's this cause and effect chain that I participate in. How can I make my causes constructive rather than destructive?


Yeah. I totally agree. I mean, becoming vegan and I-- I know we're saying don't say those words right now. But just going back to reducing my animal intake, it just felt so right. I would never have done it for so long if I was just doing it on a diet, if I was trying to lose weight or whatever. But because it was in line with my values and because I'd seen what it does to the environment and the animals, that's why I did it.


I think you feel better when things are aligned. And I want to say-- you talk in the book. You suggest-- and I would encourage people, if they think they possibly can, do breakfast and lunch no animal products, or at least no meat. And then dinner have the meat. That makes a huge difference. But I bet people could do that and it wouldn't be that much of an adjustment. It's an adjustment for sure. But after a little bit of time, it wouldn't feel like you're depriving yourself in any way. You know, you're still getting that at dinner. And there's all kinds of plant-based meats now, too, if you really love that kind of flavor.


I say that and I don't eat those that much because I haven't eaten meat for so long. I don't even want to taste it. Like, I'm the opposite of you where you crave it. To me, I crave chocolate and I have to have a debate with myself. Like--


[INTERPOSING VOICES]


That's my next book.


What did you say?


I said, that's my next book.


OK.


I'm just kidding.


There's a lot to write about chocolate, too.


We should eat chocolate. That's certainly good for everybody.


This is being seen-- we're recording this at the end of 2020. But this is airing at the beginning of 2021. So this is a great time, New Year's resolution, for people to have that new chapter in their life and make changes that really make an impact, like you're saying, high impact. Maybe it's not taking the vacation on an airplane, like you were saying. And maybe it's less meat.


You're absolutely right. New Year's is a perfect moment for this. It's such a nice time to take stock. And I've been giving a lot of thought to that myself, little things I want to change, things I know will be difficult, but that I also know will, again, make me feel more like myself, or more like the person that I imagined myself being or wanted to be. I think a lot of us carry around a bit of alienation or-- we're aware of the distance between the people that we imagine ourselves being and the people that we actually are.


And that distance is like-- it's subtle, but it's present. And it feels so good to close that up. So this is a way in which doing good in the world actually does good for you, as well.


Yeah. I see that so much with parenting, but that's a whole other story. Like, the parent I want to be and the parent I am isn't always in line. But that's a whole other story. But thank you so much. I think we have to wrap this up. Thank you so much for doing this. It was such a pleasure talking with you. I want to ask you a million more questions about everything. So you may have a million emails in your inbox.


Please.


I'm sure. Thank you, Jonathan.


I really appreciate it.

Hello everyone. Welcome to Farm Sanctuary's inaugural Sanctuary Speaker Series event. Thank you so much for joining us. My name is Miko, and I am Farm Sanctuary's Manager Of Social Justice Programs. Today I am very excited to be in conversation with Dr. Breeze Harper who is an author, scholar, and anti-racism, diversity, and inclusion strategic consultant and trainer. She is known as the creator and of Sistah Vegan-- Black Female Vegans Speak On Food, Identity, Health And Society and is the author of the novel, Scars-- A Black Lesbian Experience In Rural White New England.

Dr. Harper uses applications of anti-racism, racial equity, and black feminism to explore how racial caste, gender, and capitalism impact and influence ethical consumption philosophies within a white settler nation, the United States. Her company, Critical Diversity Solutions, is a niche diversity and inclusion beauty consultancy that uses anti-racism, intersectionality, and racial justice to help clients become more inclusive and equitable.

She has a PhD from the University of California, Davis, a master's degree from Harvard University, and a bachelor's degree from Dartmouth College. Welcome, Dr. Harper, and thank you so much for taking the time to be a part of this conversation.

Thank you, Miko. I'm looking forward to talking, and exploring, and basically sharing with everyone what I've been doing.

Yeah, awesome. Yeah, and I especially appreciate being able to be in conversation with you, because five years ago, before I even got started with Farm Sanctuary, I read Sistah Vegan, and I attended your virtual conference, The Vegan Practice Of Black Lives Matter. And at that time, I was in a national service program traveling around the Pacific region of the United States working with diverse communities on a variety of projects and different issue areas.

And when I encountered your work, it gave me an understanding of veganism and the issues of our food system in a way that aligned with my understanding of systems of oppression and issues of injustice within our country more generally. Like the issues that I was working with these various communities. So it really supported me in developing a more holistic anti-oppression framework that understood these issues as part of a larger system. So it's really beneficial in my beginning of my journey and my work from Sanctuary here.

So I'm curious now, in conversation with you five years later, to hear more about what led you to organize the Vegan Practice Of Black Lives Matter back in 2015. What inspired you to do that?

That's a great question, and I can't say it was just one thing. It was probably the momentum built from the work I've been doing in terms of black feminism, racial justice, and applying that to not just the Sistah Vegan project, but just veganism and ethical consumption overall.

And what really sparked me to bring those ideas together in tandem with Black Lives Matter was basically I think the year before mostly white vegans on social media, they show that they really didn't understand systemic oppression. That they did not understand that the prison industrial complex is a prison industrial complex. That you will find anti-blackness in legislation and policies from back in the day that now still affect us.

What was really striking to me was-- it wasn't just me, but also Bryant Terry-- and we noticed that white vegans were making statements about Michael Brown's death and protests around that. And the consensus by a lot of them was that they would basically stand up for the rights of non-human animals. But these same people thought that if you don't adhere to the law, what would you expect if you do this to the police? Of course, are going to get shot. And why would you steal a cigar or whatever?

And it was really striking to me that there was this empathy for non-human animals, but there was no empathy for a child who had been shot. I don't care if he's 18, legally you're an adult-- he's a kid, he's a child. So it was just shocking to me. And then in tandem many white vegans were like, all lives matter, all lives matter. Not really understanding that mainstream society in the United States, they have not gotten the memo that still, Black Lives Matter.

And Black Lives have not mattered-- systemically, politically, economically, socially, historically, we live in a racialized caste system. That's going to affect everything we do, including those things that we do with the, quote unquote, "best intentions," like our ethical consumption, veganism. That's going to impact how we do it, it's going to shape the ways in which we understand any type of system.

So seeing those type of responses and then, in particular, there was a response on Twitter by the handle of a user, Vegan Revolution. I remember he had typed, apparently Black Lives Matter more than chickens, more than cows. Apparently.

That was very snarky, just very sarcastic. And it wasn't that he just said that but the plethora of likes and support that this person got. So clearly the white, vegan mainstream just does not understand this whole history, they don't understand the 13th. A lot more do now, because five years later, a lot have actually been watching it and not making those connections. But they just totally didn't get it.

And I was like, it's not antithetical to think that you can do veganism and black racial justice at the same time. So let's think about this. What would it mean for me to put something together with 15, 17 speakers from across all different sectors but are still vegan, and focused on black liberation, and support Black Lives Matter.

What would it look like if we showed that they are compatible? To actually be vegan and to censor black liberation and racial equity, that it actually bolsters it, that actually makes it more effective and more inclusive. So that's basically where that idea came from. So I also thought that I wanted to make it as accessible as possible. So to make it a physical location would be very difficult. And a lot more people would have access to it if it were online.

So it was an online event for two days. I offered scholarships that people couldn't attend it. And I know you didn't ask this question, but I wanted to get sponsors for this event, and it was very difficult to get sponsors for this event. And at the time, it was not trendy to be anti-racist, Black Lives Matter. When I did propose that I need sponsorship for this event, I was mostly met with [AUDIO OUT] --the political status quo is.

So that was interesting. I did get several sponsors, but there were numerous people who just didn't want to get involved. And you brought something up that's interesting, I should go back now and see if all of them have their Black Lives Matter statement. We support Black Lives Matter. And I'm thinking, should I actually ask them, I'm wondering, why now? Why not five years ago when not just myself, but other black and brown vegans that I know were trying to do stuff and get sponsorship or support. Why then was it too political? Why then did you just want to be neutral?

But now I see you've got those statements, and now you want to pretend that suddenly you're OK with this. Why did it take basically an apocalypse, a pandemic that exacerbated the racial and equities that are already there for you to suddenly post publicly that you now support it?

Yeah, it's a very good question. And I want to talk about the relevance of the vegan praxis of Black Lives Matter today, but I also want to hear a little bit more about 2015, the format of that, and what some of the main takeaways you felt came from that conference back then. It's also just interesting to think about this virtual conference that you had taken place in 2015, and now we're in the world of 2020 where everyone's doing all these virtual conferences. But just realizing how important that accessibility piece is. But just generally, what the format of that was and some of core takeaways.

Yeah, so one are the core takeaways I thought was when we had a presenter named Hnin. She talked about the intersections of the prison industrial complex and the way laborers are exploited. So the 13th Amendment means basically a penitentiary can contract with a company, and the inmates can basically work for almost free, dollars a day. And build a wealth of mostly white light the industry leaders.

So she showed an image of a black man who was milking a cow and really showed you know these interlocking systems of oppression. That we've got this cow who is being subjugated and exploited by a capitalist, racist, speciest system. Then you've got this black man incarcerated, and we know that black men are six times more likely to be incarcerated than white people for the same or lesser offense.

So all of that wrapped up in there, right there, and I think that was the big takeaway for a lot of our participants who were still there because they wanted to support this idea that, I want to understand how Black Lives Matter is meaningful to veganism. But that was a very strong points for many people when they contacted me after giving me feedback. That they could finally see those connections.

And just to become more literate around, well, I didn't even know what the 13th was. And I really thought that if you just abided by the law-- but just seeing how it's been orchestrated and strategized for decades to continue the wealth of the elite through the exploitation of not just black, brown indigenous people or incarcerated and retired, than white folk. But also seeing that connection with how animals are exploited and that was profound for a lot of people. Like whoah.

And then to bring out even more to home was it Liz Ross's keynote address, and she's a black identified woman vegan, and she used to be a law enforcement officer. And she had said when she read the book, The New Jim Crow she said that was one of the reasons why she left the force. So her giving that keynote talk to really talk about Black Lives Matter, understanding that the New Jim Crow, the 13th Amendment, the high amounts of incarceration.

That was a strong point, again, for our participants and for myself to just start making those connections and really understanding the system, and the components, and the gears that are spinning in terms of the prison industrial complex, capitalism, the way ingredients are sourced, specism, and making those connections. So that was a profound takeaway, those are the two things that I think were one of the most profound takeaways for the participants and for myself.

And so now thinking about 2015 and those takeaways, and what was talked about at that conference, what do you see the relevance of those takeaways being now? But also just a general idea of a big praxis of Black Lives Matter? What do you see that relevance being today?

I think it's more relevant than ever, and I see a lot of this in terms of public statements and organizations that normally were not doing it are now either doing it in terms of cosmetic diversity, or they're actually doing it because they're taking it seriously. So I have received-- because I'm on a lot of lists are focused on veganism, or animal rights, or animal advocacy-- within the last three months, especially the first week of June 2020, a lot of newsletters and emails coming out saying that we support Black Lives Matter, we're anti-racist, we're focused on racial equity.

So I'm seeing that, so that's what you're saying, but then I'm like, but what are you doing? So what I'm seeing now is there is this realization that yes, Black Lives Matter, that's completely different from All Lives Matter. So we understand that, we're getting the memo, but then how do we integrate it? So what I'm seeing now is there is some commitment, depending on who you talk to. It's unclear if they understand what that commitment means, it's unclear if they understand when you do center Black Lives Matter and also other minoritized racial groups matter, that you need to divest away from whiteness. That you've been investing in, whether consciously or unconsciously, over the past 450 years.

I think that's where we are is. Right now everyone's at the book club, let's read about it, and it's all in your head. And I'm talking to you everyone as in the white racial status quo. It's all in our heads, the title of a book, let's have a conversation about race. That's what I keep on saying. But we've been having a conversation for decades now, we've been trying to have it, we need to do action. And then not just superficial action-- what is Black Lives Matter racial equity look like as a structural change, dismantling.

So that's where we are. I've been doing this forever as a professional, and now I've had a huge uptick in work. Like 12 times more work than I've ever had since the end of May, which shows something is gaining momentum. But is it a movement that's here to stay or is it a moment? Focusing on racial equity more or less because of the protests against the violence via other police directed toward black people, and we're doing Black Lives Matter now. Is it just a moment?

And I'm giving this class called, Becoming An Anti-racist Leader, I gave a first course in July. And it was received very well. It was very basic, but what I got a sense is that most of the participants were white or non black, and just the questions, but what do? How do I do it? What do I do? I don't know what to do, and what does it mean to divest in whiteness? And what does it mean to do this or that?

So everyone's at the beginning level, so it's this challenge to oneself to really shift paradigms. To literally decolonize one's mind. It's a struggle, it's really hard, I cannot conceive of this, what would it look like? And then there's the fears, there's the anxiety, there's the shame. Which great, those are valid emotions, but it's not productive.

And so there seems to be lots of fear like, ooh, how far down the rabbit hole do I want to go if I'm talking about, I want to be truly anti-racist as a the white person?

Right.

What am I really willing to give up? That's really scary. It's easy to read books, it's easy to post memes, it's easy to go and listen to TV talks. But what are you going to do internally? And how can you understand that Black Lives Matter is not white genocide. It's doesn't mean white lives don't matter. How can we shift and understand that within the context of animal advocacy and veganism that we live in a racialized caste system.

So when you are born into caste, you're fragmented. I don't care if you're the dominant class or you've been subjugated. It's a fragmentation. So how is it that I can understand Black Lives Matter as a way to dismantle the racial caste system and to be wholly human, fully human, even as a white person. Because a lot of times it's always focused on black indigenous people of color as being fragmented. But there isn't enough conversation to talk about the fragmentation of white people and the lack of consciousness around the trauma, the stress, the anxiety-- all that stuff it takes to maintain whiteness. All that stuff.

Like us, BIPOCs, we collectively understand that component, but it's white folk-- especially the more liberal, progressive whether they're an animal advocacy or not-- I talk to them, and they're like, I was raised in a household where you I don't, quote unquote, "see color," we're all equal. We don't talk about it. And now we're talking about it, but you don't realize the whole process of maintaining whiteness is actually traumatic. A different type of trauma, but it's traumatic. And it's informed the way you've done everything. Including how you engage in veganism, how you engage in animal rights.

And that's where I am right now, where I'm trying to understand how those worlds collide with Black Lives Matter, and then me as a white person, how do I divest from that, and then I'm in an organization or a company that does veganism, and we're cruelty free, and we're supposed to be ethical. We're all about colliding. And we're all new. In the United States we never did--

Like South Africa has, is it called the Truth And Reconcilliation-- I can't remember the exact wording, but on a national level. United States haven't even thought about doing that on a national level. So we've got hundreds of years of trauma, we've got all this stuff happening. We're talking a lot more with BIPOCs. With white folk, no, we're not talking about it. We're not even addressing or understanding, like, the somatic. It's still up in our heads with the book stuff.

So there's just how I'm seeing the last five years now. This is what it is-- no more conversation, no more books, let's do the dismantling, divestment in whiteness, and let's actually even approach this-- it's controversial-- from a trauma informed framework. So what does that look like as a white person?

And then you start talking, and some people, they're uncomfortable. So divesting in whiteness means that I may not advance in a job the way that I thought I was going to. Or the ways in which we are going to think about who our board members are going to be? If you're for profit, we've got to think about how our money is being invested and who invested enough?

Actually maybe we shouldn't even, even though they can give us $5 million, I realize they're invested in other things that actually take away from racial equity. So we have to peel back the layers of what that means. And I understand that, because whiteness is privilege and access to resources, and money, and power. So it's not just thinking about your organization, but the things that have kept your organization alive-- practices and policies that have kept racial inequities alive. When you divest from that, where that leave you as an organization or a leader?

So all that stuff, and that's where we are right now. And I am hesitant in thinking that all of this is happening. Oh, we're going toward this new path of liberation for all. I don't know, I think collectively a lot of white people are not ready to let go of that.

Yes. I'm appreciating all of what you're talking about and really wanting this to be a space in which you are sharing exactly what you're sharing and saying all of those things. So I'm asking these questions, but it's really me putting forward this question, stepping out of the way, you're saying all of the things. And if you see me looking down, I'm just writing down things that I'm wanting to catch and hold on to that are really important. But a couple of things-- I was actually in that training that you're just did-- and absolutely, the questions are really illuminating, because they show how people are thinking about these things, how people are processing these things. And how much this really is a fundamental shift we're talking about. This is just shaking things up and in a way that we have to be thinking about things in a very different way.

How do I do this? We've been working and operating this way for so long in such a fundamental, and now we're doing things differently. So what does that look like, just that process? Also how you talked about using this trauma informed framework I think is really interesting, because absolutely, of course, folks of color getting impacted. But what is the traumatic effect and impact for everyone who's been having to live within this condition to function within all of this? Just thinking about that impact.

And you're talking about your work and the work that you do as a DEI consultant and strategist, and so I'm curious too just a to hear more about that work. How you support people in that process, what that looks like, some of the key issues that you and your business partner work on when you're working with organizations and kind of just like guiding people and doing that work?

Yeah, so we started off doing niche boutique consulting. Like were they focusing on animal advocacy, vegan-oriented organizations, and for profit. Over the last two years we've really branched out that whether it's veganism or a financial industry, it's literally all the same types of challenges. It may look slightly different, but we're just getting the same basic themes.

So what we usually do is we assess an organization, we talk about what their needs are based on what they've provided, it's almost always white leadership that come to us. We can't recruit and retain talented people of color. We, for instance, will conduct things like a racial equity audit, which means-- a lot of organizations will first come to us and say, we just need a training, we need a workshop. Can you teach us about anti-racism in two hours? No joke. And they mean well, but can you learn about anything deeply in two hours?

That's why when I went to college for a specific degree I was there fore four years, just like the first degree, the bachelor's one. So one of the things we do is we say to them, OK, so we will work with you, but we want to know if your ethics and values are aligned with ours. So that's the first thing. First of all, we don't work with people, organizations where we get a sense that they are just for cosmetic diversity and/or they just have done stuff that we consider is unethical. So we're not going to work like we're not going to work with Purdue.

We are vegan and cruelty free. We're focused on that. So that's one of the things that we do. So we talk to them, most people contact us because they want a training from us. So we explain to them systemically, this is why training is not going to work. You have to approach this in terms of a whole system, so a training and a workshop is one of them. No, we cannot do it in two hours. We recommend at least a full day, eight hours. And then we also recommend that we look at your board, we look at your website materials, other literature.

We do a critical race, feminist content analysis of your work. And that means that we're not just looking at race but it's intersectional. So race is usually centered with our work, but we're trained to really understand how gender, ability, national status or citizenship status, all that stuff, is reflected in the materials that you have. So how can we make that more inclusive? We explain to them for things like, we don't do equality, we do equity. So making sure we're all on the same language by what we mean.

You say you want to be more diverse and you want to be more inclusive and belonging, so let's talk about that language. What do you mean by that? This is what we mean by in terms of systems. And then there's the strategic planning. So once they realize they're not going to get this done in a week, because it took 400 years to build, we you need a strategic plan or maybe they have what a thinking in their mind that we need a strategic plan. So we want to make sure that our board and this animal advocacy group has this amount of people of color by whatever whatever.

OK, that's great. Let's look at the way you describe your goals, let's look at the way you even put out your description for candidacy for a board. So we do the assessment, and we'll sit down and look through a description. And we'll say, oh, that's interesting. So you require the candidate to have this skill set or this expertise. Well, the way you framed it here, those words, the connotation is usually white and upper class. So let's try to think about the ways in which we put language together and the racial, gender and class connotations they have.

And it's hard for our clients to really understand that until they at least first take a basic training and get that very basic literacy. So what we do is we don't do stuff for them, we work together so we can grow together and they can learn. So maybe within one or two years they can be at a literacy level where they can start doing those changes on their own. So maybe they didn't notice that two years ago, but now that I'm putting together this new marketing campaign, I realized I shouldn't use this word, or I shouldn't use these images, because clearly it's going to exclude 90% of the world.

So getting to that point where they gain that literacy and they can work on their own to do that. We also do surveys. So you as a leader may think that your animal rights organization or your vegan company is fine and everyone's cool. But you don't know what type of questions to ask, because you're not literate in the language of racial equity and racial justice. So we do surveys, qualitative and quantitative data, and depending on how big the company is, if there's different sites or locations, we'll tailor that survey.

Because that's what we ask organizations to understand, you can't make changes without data. How do you get the data? You have to ask the right questions. You can't ask the right questions if you're not literate in the language of racial equity and intersectionality. So we build those for them, and then we ask the board, volunteers, and their paid staff to take those surveys. And then we take that data, we see themes, we see red flags, there's going to be lots of red flags usually. But then we'll try to organize what is priority.

So we'll pick out the first one or two things that we can start honing in on. It's usually job descriptions, recruitment and retention, it's almost always recruitment and retention issues. And we work with them, that's the plan. And we take that data, and we look at that, and we make suggestions, that's what we do. And it's pretty exciting work.

And we've worked with, in the past several years, we've worked with pretty big named animal advocacy and or vegan-oriented organizations or companies. So it's been very exciting. And I know you didn't ask this, but a few that had contacted us before, they had good intentions but they really didn't get it. And they were kind of like, OK, we're done, we just did the training, and we're done. And we were like, OK, but I was thinking, no, this is not done.

So I can't force anyone to understand what I'm trying to stay, I, can only give them the information, and then when they're ready, they'll be able to synthesize it and realize OK, yeah, I kind of screwed that up three years ago. Now we're ready to take that next step where we're going to actually dive into it, commit to these changes systemically and structurally.

And I think it's the way things have been moving and changing the last three months. There are a lot of people who are like, we want to work with you, and it comes off as, even though they want to do more than training, it feels like I think this is still going to be some type of like wokeness badge to put on their thing. But then there are other companies that we're working with, organizations, where it's clear they're really committed to it. You can just sense it, you can feel it.

So that's where we are right now. And the thing is, we're just talking about Black Lives Matter. That said, there's so much more. And this is like all anti-racism 1.0. There is also talking to non-black and white, especially non-black communities, about anti-blackness. So there's just so many layers to that. And then beyond that, talking about other oppressive things.

So for a lot of people it becomes overwhelming. Oh my God, we're just trying to focus on Black Lives Matter. Now you're bringing up ablism, or now you're bringing up this stuff. So it can be a little daunting, but what we do with our organizations that we work with is we try to take it piece by piece. You're not going to do everything overnight. The point is that you're constantly working toward, working toward. So as long as you're consciously taking these steps and you're working toward, working toward, that's what you need to focus on. Not some end all be all goal where, we're going to be here 100% with ability, with language, with age, with everything by 2027.

It's not going to happen, things are always changing. It's being consciously aware of how you integrate all that, what steps you need to take to start moving toward it. So that's how we work with our clients. People get anxious, because we're in this quick fix culture. No, it took 450 years to build this entire thing. You may not see the changes you want in your lifetime, but just start on some type of path with actual action and structural changes. Do the best that you can, make your commitment, but don't hold on to some end all, be all ultimate goal, because you're just setting yourself up for a life of misery. [AUDIO OUT] did that differently like 20 years ago.

Right.

But that's how we work with them. We work with them that way. And no shaming, no judgment, with some exceptions. We don't advocate Cancel Culture, because we've all done things out of ignorance. But we need a climate where we can grow and not be scared to ask those questions. People will sincerely ask me, mostly white, can you tell me why it's problematic for me to talk about black people enslaved as the same as a cow being enslaved? Some people are scared to ask that question, that someone told me that was racist, but I really don't know what the problem is.

We provide a climate where we are not judgmental. And I can talk to you about a different framing of that, I can explain to you from a racial equity standpoint why that is a problem right now and why doesn't go off very well with mostly non-white people. So this is the history of race in America, this is the history of animal lives and certainly human beings, all this stuff. So I can share that with you, you have the information, what you choose to do with it is out of my control.

I'm not going to judge you as an individual, but we step back and we take it from a holistic, historical, institutions versus just calling some individual person, well, you're are a racist, well you're a homophobe, you're a sexist. Everyone shuts down. And that's one of my things right now when we're talking about-- whether it's animal advocacy and veganism-- there are different ways to frame how to engage in racial equity and justice. And one of the things that I don't necessarily agree with is when people say, well, all white people are racist. And even when white people say it.

I don't think that's productive right now. I like the word racialized consciousness. I think that's far more effective and what that basically means is when you have a white, racialized consciousness, as a white person-- and some people who are people of color or have been predominately influenced by white racist structures-- is that your consciousness-- the way you think, the way you do things, the way you navigate the world-- has been influenced by white, racist structures. That's all it means.

So most people are not even consciously aware of it. So that's why I would like to say that most white people have white racialized consciousness or racialized consciousness that affect the way they think they're being objective.

Right, right.

Professor Arnold Farr, he's one of the few black philosophers in the United States. You know, he also is the reason why, maybe 10 years ago, that I decided to stop saying "all white people are racist," or "you're being racist." Unless someone literally-- I mean, there are some-- clearly, there's some things where it's clear. But for most people who come to me who are white I say, yeah, that's because you have white racialized consciousness. And this is what I mean by it.

Right.

So that's-- it's so deeply impactful in how you decide to put together your vegan organization. Are you-- how you sold that vegan cheese.

Right.

So that's how-- that's how I try to frame it and try to talk to my clients. Because it is-- I'm not saying it's the same level of consequences, though it can be. You can lose your job or something. But, you know, white people don't want to be-- I don't think white people want to be called racist and then be more open to kind of learning more. I think it can be a triggering-- not triggering. It can be a shut down word for a lot of white people. Who are-- I mean, unless they're--

I mean, I don't actually know if a KKK member would consider themselves a racist or if they just, I just have white pride and I want to protect my white people. Like, I don't even know if they use that word.

Right.

Some of them.

But I think, when we start talking about consciousness, when we start talking about the ways in which we're influenced by structures and systems, versus just saying, you know, I know you're vegan and you're white, but you're a racist and this is why. Most people shut down.

Like if someone comes to me and says-- in my earlier days, you know, Breeze, when you say something is retarded, you're an ableist. You're a moron. You're an ableist. You know? Of course I'm going to shut down. Of course I'm not going to listen. Even though it was wrong for me to-- of course it's horrible for me to say the word "lame" or "retarded."

Right.

So that's how I kind of think about it, when I work with the clients, from that perspective. Is that, what made me shut down even though I knew that person was right? You know? What made me--

Because you're-- I think people aren't trying-- I think a lot of people are not trying to negate reality. But it's like, it's hurtful. Because you think, all this time, especially as a vegan, that I really am embarking on something that I think is trying to alleviate cruelty and suffering.

Right.

Now you're telling me that I'm a racist? You know? Like, of course, that in itself can be traumatizing. So--

Yeah.

Yeah, so with that, around the language that I try to use, I try to use language that is to hold you accountable but is also compassionate and mindful, but also asks you to strive to move forward. And I think there is a great analogy where, you know, some people, we're all-- like we're all in this body of water. And, you know, some people are on a speedboat moving really fast toward that direction. Where other-- maybe someone else is in a paddle boat moving-- but they're slowly moving toward that direction.

So I try to kind of look at it that way and not be too frustrated if someone doesn't get something immediately.

Yeah.

This is your timeline, and this is what you need. And maybe, you know-- eventually, we're all going to-- eventually, we're kind of heading toward, hopefully, the same goal of alleviating the suffering and misery of all beings.

Right.

Personally, I'm just striving for racial equity because it's hard for human beings to be at their fullest to do the work for non-human animals when, like, the system for human beings is already, you know, it's disenfranchising and inequitable for most of the-- most folks of color and working class people, poor people in the United States. Right?

Yeah. Again, I mean, I'm appreciating and just taking in all of the things that you're saying. And in your approach, I mean, you're also a fiction writer. And I know that's an important component of how you go about doing your racial equity training, as well. You incorporate this empathic storytelling.

So could you talk more about why you do that and how you feel that that's important in helping people to make these connections?

Yeah. So, I mean, if I could, I would read theory all day. But not everybody enjoys theory. Like, I love that deep theory stuff.

But, you know, it doesn't really connect to the heart. And it's very abstract. So I can just tell you. I started writing books when I was eight. I wrote my first book when I was eight, and it was a hot mess. I don't even remember it. But my mom was like, just keep on going! I don't know what you're writing about, but you seem passionate about it.

And then the first day of seventh grade, someone called me the n-word-- all white school system with the exception of my twin brother and I. And I just remember how deeply hurtful it was. And I don't-- my peers just really never understood that. My teacher never understood why I didn't want to read Huckleberry Finn because of the use of the n-word like over 200 times.

So I was like, well, obviously all the theory and the reports and the research-- you know, the data's there. It tells you that there's something off. But there's something about just dry data and reports that are not actually affecting the heart of human beings.

So I thought to myself, you know, I really love writing. So why don't I write? Why don't I do that? But write in a way that is-- fiction that integrates black feminisms and racial equity, racial justice, Black history, all of that. And then intersectional.

Right.

So I wrote my book Scars because I really wanted people to understand the struggles of this one person who is this black lesbian teenager in rural white New England, what it means to be in a rural area. Youth development, but she's also working class and really struggling economically. She's in the closet with all these intersections.

And it was there-- like those who ended up reading the block were like, wow, this was really well done. I really felt what you were focusing on. And I really focused on trauma. Not just with like her, but one of the white, more financially privileged characters, a gay guy, you know, the trauma he didn't realize he had as being this white, financially privileged guy in the United States and what that meant, and kind of what that denied in terms of his full humanity.

So those are the type of stories that I like to put together. And then when I started my consulting firm I'm like, OK, well, you know, I understand the theory and all the data. But how can I get my clients to understand on an empathetic level?

So I took that artistic craft that I have. And when I give these trainings, the first two sections usually are-- it's history, theory, definitions. And then I take all of that and I put that into-- hopefully-- an entertaining, heart centered story. About, you know, a character who is usually part of a minoritized racial group. Which I did for this last training I did for anti-racism leadership, to really understand that person's world-- not just in the workplace, but also beyond. Not just as an individual, but all the systems that are unequal, or inequitable-- political system, educational system, food system. How that impacts their lives, everything.

And it's there where a lot of my clients, people have taken my classes. They're like, wow, that really hit it.

So that, and I also gave a workshop called Lulu and the Lobster. Which I think was in 2019, January. It was online. Because I got a lot of-- still, the same thing, even after the vegan praxis of Black Lives Matter. Mostly white people not understanding how anti-blackness operates in animal advocacy. And anti-blackness beyond what you see, which is either someone calling the police on a black family having a barbecue in the park. Or, you know, a police officer killing somebody because of their quote unquote "Negro phobia." Right?

So what does it look like on many different levels? Yeah, not for the quote unquote-- for this particular story. You know, it was-- I like to focus on-- and there's different ways to live black, to be black. Right? So many different ways. There is a lot of focus on urban and low income. And I was like, is there where we can think about this for this particular story. We have a black family. Both of the parents have PhDs or a doctorate. They're living in one of the whitest, wealthiest communities or counties in the United States, or in California, which is Marin County. And they have a dog rescue thing. And the husband-- there's a wife and a husband. And the wife, she has a PhD in something. I can't remember even though I wrote the story. But it was focused on Michael-- just understanding Michael Vick and all that stuff.

Her husband is a veterinarian, top veterinarian surgeon. And they have a dog rescue. Right? So I thought was really important to write a story-- well, they've got it all. They have it all materialistically. But look at how anti-blackness still affects this family. And look at the ending and what this means.

Right.

I read that story so many times, whether it's a keynote address, or elaborating on it more and having interactive exercises. My clients are like, oh my god, I didn't even know this. These are the connections I never made. And I don't think-- they didn't make it with definitions, or history, or the theory.

But putting that story together, I don't just read in like a dry voice. I act it out. So I'm acting out the characters' voices. I want people to feel-- like when the character Lulu is pregnant and she's crying, you don't even know she's pregnant, and she's clearly worried about the future of her black son because of what happened at her work that day. Because she called out someone for being racist by posting something about Michael Vick, which clearly had nothing to do with his dog abuse. It was more about their sentiments around black men and the anti blackness was there.

So she's crying, and you realize that she's dealing with this at work as one of the only black people who's fighting and doing animal advocacy for, I think they're focused on dogs. But no one gets it. She's-- microaggressions at work. But it's not just at work. She's pregnant, right? She's worried about the future of her own black children, her old black son.

And, you know, so they're doing this. They're doing the vegan work. They're doing all that work that the white vegan animal world wants them to do, but there's still anti-blackness. They still have to deal with it, even though they, quote, unquote, "made it." And that's why I thought that story was so important because of this mythical trope or narrative that, well, if black people just got their degrees and just went to school and got an education and kept their jobs, then-- you know, like, OK, well, they did it and still. So? You know? So I'm kind of being silly, but-- and that's basically, like I can--

And that's where people-- like a lot of my clients, it was really great to have them say, I got it. That or reading Scars and having them question more and talk about it more.

Right.

And so that's why it's so important when I give those workshops is, you know, now-- you can do it all in your head. You can understand intellectually. But how do we move it to the heart? And it seems sometimes corny for those who think it's a little-- you know, it's a little too wishy-washy. But no, like, people have been moved by reading these certain models, right? Listening to certain songs, watching certain movies. Like just been really moved in a way when you read, you know, Michel Foucault, that you may not be. Because I had to read him for Dartmouth College, and I was like, this isn't moving me. This is not moving. How can I turn those philosophies into some of the stuff in fiction and get people to really understand? So to answer your question, so that's why I do it. And I'm working on my third book. It's called Seeds of Sankofa, and it's Afrofuturism.

So a lot of my work questions-- which a lot of white vegans mostly say is, if the future were vegan, then everything would be OK. Right? It would just trickle down or trickle up, whatever. And then it would dismantle all systems of oppression. So yes, eye roll, whatever.

But I was like, OK, so I'm going to-- I'm going to challenge you on that one by writing this book. So say we have a plant based future. We don't know why it happened. We're still trying to figure out the narrative. But we still have capitalism. And if we understand the history of capitalism, it really cannot exist without systems of oppression.

Right.

The construction of racism that makes you understand Black Marxism by Dr. Robinson. You know, he takes the basic philosophies in Marxism to task by saying, I know you guys kind of forgot the whole construction of a racial caste system, even before we got to like, you know, Virginia-- what would be Virginia-- the first ship that had enslaved Africans. That has been in existence to maintain capitalism, right?

So my book is like, OK, so here's this future. And the planet is plant based. But there's still capitalism, and there's still anti-blackness and other forms of anti-indigeneity.

So it's a planet, the future. And it's 2020, but it's also 20 years in the future. So you've got the protagonist of this black woman who is a vegan in the Bay Area with four kids. Not me. And she has special gifts. And, you know, just really trying to figure all of that out-- the tech, technocracy, food tech, vegan tech, and all this stuff happening without racial equity in mind.

And there's a move that's made in the book where it becomes not just plant based, but cannabis, hemp based economy. But, you know, how do we get to the level we're going to build this? Well, the 13th amendment. And lots of stuff going down-- riots and protests. I was writing it before I even knew COVID was going to happen, which is kind of scary. You know, some type of-- something happened, some type of virus happened. A lot of the population didn't make it, and those who didn't like the way things were-- black and brown people rioting, blah, blah, blah. And the government like that.

So if you're not for us, then we're going to incarcerate you. We're going to make you build a new green economy, which is going to be ethical. Because now the new plant based future is this or that. But it's still going to uphold white wealth.

So that's how I look at that. Like I just like-- you can totally have a fully plant based future. But if you do not dismantle capitalism and find alternatives and, you know, center racial equity, then this is what the future of the hemp industry, cannabis, and a plant based future will look like.

So that's what I'm writing. I've written 50 pages so far. Those who've read it they're like, wow, this is really awesome. It's like my dissertation but like in the form of future-- Afrofuturism fiction. With like four amazing black women and girl characters.

Yeah.

And I'm like so excited to just do that as another way for people to feel-- understand what I said in the workshop. If like, you know, how to be anti-racist isn't enough or whatever, hopefully this narrative, this kind of empathetic storytelling, hopefully that will get you to understand what is at stake.

Mhm. Mhm. And you said the name of that forthcoming book is Seeds of Sankofa?

Yeah, and Sankofa, it means looking back-- like looking back by looking forward. So don't-- so don't forget the history of the past and how it can or cannot inform the future. So and the main character's name is Sankofa.

Love it. Awesome. Yeah. And then I've also seen you-- in talking about this racial equity work-- I've also seen you mention a preference for anti-racism in action as opposed to ally. So could you talk about what you see the distinction being and why you feel like that distinction is important?

Yeah. I feel like, in terms of racial equity and anti-racism-- and this is focused more on white folk with good intentions. Like it's easier to say you're an ally. But ally feels like, well, it's kind of this choice that you make. And I don't really want-- it's something that you-- you've chosen to do, but at any point, you can just kind of not do it anymore because whatever. It's like it's just kind of a side thing.

But like when I say anti-racism in action, it means you're just doing it all the time. Not because you want to be an ally, or because it's a side hobby. It's literally something that you're doing.

So you should not be an ally. You should be part of it without saying you're an ally. It may look different because you're white and a different history. But it's something period. Anti-racism in action. So like it has to be an act continuously. You're always doing it, thinking about it. You know, changing yourself internally but also making external changes. Action, action, action.

You can read all the books in the world about it and join book clubs and stuff and, you know, do black out Tuesday. Is that what it's called? Can't remember. I'm losing track of all the different memes. But what I want you to do is not think of yourself as an ally. You're part of this problem and the solution too. So you should be doing anti-racism in action. That's what they should.

Now I know-- it's kind of, you know, it's a controversial subject. You know, ally versus other things. But that's how I kind of think of ally. I just-- it just doesn't bode well with me because of that. Is not something that you should choose as an option. That's something you should be doing.

Right. Right. Got it. Yeah.

And so in 2016, kind of shifting to other work that you do that you've also done, you collaborated with the executive director of an organization called FoodFirst to create a report about how systemic racism operates in the food system and the need to dismantle it. So could you talk a little bit about what that project and some of the findings there? Could you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, basically, it was more of a project work. Because a lot of people-- in FoodFirst, they focus on all different eating systems. Not veganism or vegetarianism. But I came in as a collaborator, coming more from a background where I understand food system is racist. And most people don't understand, what do you mean by that? So really understanding the history of the present, things like land grabbing, right? And understanding things like the Farm Bill and how it's never really-- it's only really supported white people. But even white farmers still struggle, right? They're struggling.

Just understanding the ways in which the food system works. So, you know, migrant laborers is mostly from South and Central America, Mexico. You know, how that-- in itself, the ways things and policies have been structured to exploit that labor.

So really just understanding all of the intricate pieces of the food system. And for me it was important because a lot of vegans think, well, you know, I'd rather watch-- I'd rather watch someone harvesting strawberries than watching someone slaughter a chicken. That's why I'm vegan. I'm like, OK, have you actually seen the conditions of the tens of thousands of people that are harvesting strawberries that are supposedly cruelty free?

And this is why the conditions are-- because of the ways in which the system is racist and capitalist. And this is why. So that report really-- it gets people to really understand what you mean by, the food system is racist. What do you mean by that?

So understanding-- you know, from the-- what's called from farm to table, you know? What does that look like when we're talking about systemically racist in the policies or practice?

So that's why that report was really-- really, really, really important. And to kind of define what we mean by racism.

Right.

Applied to food. So I wrote it such a long time ago. I can't-- I just remember like, overall, that was what was really important to me, was understanding the systemic-- but also things like-- I don't like food desert. I like the word food apartheid. So, you know, understanding things like that.

And I say-- this is maybe the last five years. Food desert-- just kind of the connotation of a desert is naturally occurring, but no. Use food apartheid. Because apartheid actually means that it's been-- you know, it's been orchestrated. It's strategic, right? So a human being did it for a purpose of control and power. Whereas when you say food desert, a lot of people don't even understand the history of, you know, how food-- the food system has been used to disenfranchise and control.

So when we place that with apartheid, then that history is made visible. Just things like that.

Yeah.

So that was a cool collaboration. I also collaborated with them before writing that to give a basic training around-- on the whiteness in the food system. That collaboration kind of, I think, spurred the next project, which was to co collaborate on, let's do a background reporter on-- and start off with, you know, racism in the food system.

Unfortunately, we didn't do more because-- I think I got pregnant again. Yeah. When I had my fourth child, I was like, I'm so busy. I started a new job. But yeah.

They do good work. The FoodFirst-- they're very good at what they do. And I encourage people to look at their work to really understand racism in the food system, but also a lot of focus on land-- the impact of gentrification and land grabbing. So part of my book, Seeds of Sankofa, if we're going to scale out hemp production to be-- like this plant based future where we use hemp, then whose land will be taken? It's historically what has always happened, right? Whose land is taken, and then who's forced to work on the land? So those are the things that I draw from with my learning from FoodFirst, is my concept of land grabbing and gentrification and all that stuff and how it impacts always minoritized racial groups. So that's pretty much 2016.

And is that accessible-- still available for people to access?

It's a free download. If you go to foodfirst.org, and if there's a search function, like background or report, just type in "dismantling racism in the food system."

OK.

And FoodFirst-- and FoodFirst is one word. Yeah. So you can make that available.

Yeah, and a lot of people-- most people who have read it are like, wow, this is very, very helpful.

Right.

It was really powerful to make those connections. And I think that's what-- I just can't emphasize enough, between FoodFirst's work and the Food Empowerment Project, for vegans-- mostly white vegans, who have had easy access to their entire life and never been food insecure, it's just vital for this demographic, if they're truly committed to cruelty free, to expand that beyond non-human animals and really expand what that means to human beings as well.

Right.

They're not going to understand why strawberries can be just as cruel, under different conditions, than, you know, slaughtering chickens for food. Like if you-- I remember somebody had posted that. You know, I'd rather look at strawberries. I'm like, do you understand the life of a migrant worker? Do you understand-- right now--

Actually, I don't even know if it's understood why. I mean, they're being slammed with COVID-19. Well, why is that? Because a lot of them live where-- first, you're working on there without proper protection equipment, right? And they're just so much happening. You know, a lot of folk, they don't have access to running water. Stuff to clean your hands after taking a poop or whatever. Like all this stuff, it's just like-- it blows my mind, right? So of course you're going to be the most vulnerable if a pandemic hits.

And I had proposed to certain vegans-- and even if you just want to be selfish because you want to keep getting your vegan food, think about it that way. You know? If, you know, folk aren't there to pick your food-- "your food" I put into quotations because it's always, like, possessive versus other words. Then what are you going to do?

Right.

They're getting slammed so badly.

Yeah.

So there's just this lack of awareness of-- you know, COVID-19 is a virus. But the pandemic of racism has been happening for hundreds of years. And now COVID-19 has shown-- it's just shown everything to a lot of mainstream people who never ever-- didn't know, you know?

Yeah.

That really bothers me right now. And the work at the Food Empowerment Project by Lauren Ornelas, you know, she's been saying this for ever. And no one listens to her because-- not no one, but those who should be listening aren't listening because they're invested in capitalism. Because she's not just-- she's just focused on farm workers' rights. They're pro-vegan, but they also question capitalism. Like, you can't get funding for that. You're not going to have anyone listening. But it's not like she's saying anything new.

Right.

And she's-- they don't get the support that they need. But they're doing it. They're doing the work. But they-- I mean, they struggle. She said-- actually, she had typed up and she talked about how they can't-- they can't even get people to donate every year for the farm workers' kids to get resources. Because the farm workers are so poor that they can't afford backpacks and just tools for their kids when they go back to school, right?

And they can't even convince most vegans with money-- and almost always white. And I say that because data shows, for instance, black people have 9% the wealth of white people. OK? They're not interested. They're not-- but these people are picking the vegan food for you. They need help. And they shouldn't even need charity because they should be paid, you know, a thriving wage. They shouldn't be in these horrible conditions where they can't even-- yeah, all this stuff. Whatever.

So but that's the thing. Like that's where we are right now.

Right. Yeah.

She-- this organization, and there are many like that, almost always run by BIPOCs, right? Black Indigenous People of Color-- not getting what they need. You know? Because they're there to make the real structural changes and dismantle it. But that's the thing, again. So vegans-- mostly white vegans.

Right.

You know what they need. You see the data. Why are you still not divesting away from this or that and investing in that?

Right.

Right?

And I've said this for years now. For many white vegans, it's easy to replace cow milk with soy milk. And it's easy to replace those cute red leather shoes with pleather. But there are no cute replacements for white privilege. Right? And that's the thing where we get stuck at. A lot of the work that I'm doing and that I talk to-- a lot of well-meaning vegans who just don't understand why they're supposed to care about organizations like the Food Empowerment Project. Why should I care about, you know, abolishing prisons?

So there's just-- and that's where I get frustrated.

Yeah.

Yeah, just the work. And I'm like I don't get it, and I have to probably be careful with my own racial battle fatigue. But I cannot understand, is it that a lot of-- it's not all. I know there are many well-intentioned and good-hearted white people who are trying to make the change and they are willing to make that divestment. But there aren't enough.

Right.

So I don't understand what's going on in the mind, where someone is crying and understands the suffering, you know, that non-human animal is going through. Or the suffering-- the heart and the love they dedicate to a farm rescue.

But at the same time, some of them, they don't make that connection to what Lauren at the Food Empowerment Project is trying to do. And that's the part where I'm-- is it-- and that's where I'm trying to get more into the psychic, you know? And trauma and privilege-- what's going on here? And that's the part where it gets a little difficult for me as a consultant and trainer.

Yeah.

You know, there seems to be a point where some people just get stuck.

Right.

And I'm like, I think that's it. I think there's-- I didn't even know-- and I'm trying to use my words wisely. There is-- I should get their information. I was on LinkedIn the other day, and there's this woman, she's trying to do a 12-step program for white people and racism. And she's using-- that she's framing it in terms of addiction. She got a lot of slack about it.

But I was like, hm, maybe I need to also look at it from a different frame. So is there something-- because you can be addicted to anything. So you can tell someone who has a chemical addiction, you know, you can't do this because you're hurting yourself, you're hurting your family. It doesn't matter what you say and the facts. You know, there's something that's happening in terms of addiction, right? Nothing you can say or do is going to have that person change. There has to be other things that have to help.

So she's kind of-- she's theorizing that maybe, for many, that racism is an addiction. So she [AUDIO OUT] she's going to approach it-- oops. [AUDIO OUT]

I didn't realize the phone could call, come in. So anyway, I really am trying to understand it. Because I know, you know, in itself addiction is controversy. And to parallel racism as the same as someone who has an opiate addiction, I'm not saying it's the same. I'm just trying to figure out-- you know, just different-- is it possible that someone could be addicted to that? The power that you get? The privileges that you get? No matter how much, you know, maybe rationally they know they shouldn't do it. But what's going on?

So we're talking about-- before I was talking about trauma. And then this therapist is talking about addiction. So I'm just trying to-- I'm trying to figure out just new ways to understand what the impediments are and figure out in a way that is not necessarily going to be something that everyone agrees with. Because talking about both trauma and addiction outside of--

You know, trauma is usually like veterans' trauma, right? A lot about PTSD, and we're looking at military vets. And with addiction-- especially currently now in United States, opiate-- opiate-- is that what it's called? Sorry if I'm using the wrong word. The addiction with opioids. Opioids?

Right. Opioids, yeah.

Yeah. So I know that can be. But I think it's worth a try to figure out that part. Because that's what I don't understand is that-- you see the suffering, you see it with human beings. So what's going on here where you're like, I don't care. I don't want to-- you know, as long as I get my vegan food, I don't care.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are so many important things that you're raising. And I'm thinking about like the time and all of the things that we could be talking about.

So kind of just like bring it full circle-- and you've kind of been speaking to this already a little bit. When you think of the vegan anti-racist praxis, you know, in a future where we actually are moving in that direction, where we're able to move beyond those stuck places, what do you think is the most-- what is the manifestation of that? What is the most important thing for people to really understand to be moving in that direction of an actual vegan, anti-racist praxis?

Yeah, okay. So I'm still trying to figure that out as I'm working with and toward it. But one of the things that I want to put out is that, you're not actually losing anything. You're losing something that was part of a particular paradigm that you were maybe invested in. But there are so many other different ways to live and frame life.

So I think to kind of get over the notion that it's like either this or nothing.

Right.

And that's probably not the best analogy, but I just-- I would love to read the actual journal articles, the journal entries, of white slave owning men and women. And the white America who was like, you know, supporting antebellum slavery, whether covertly or overtly. You know, what were they freaking out about? Like, what will the future be if we don't have antebellum as an institution? We're all going to die! Everything is going to fall apart!

So I'm just trying to get people to think that, everything isn't going to fall apart. You're not going to really-- you're not going to lose out on, you know, better possibilities. You may not be able to understand that now. Or like, you know, think about that in terms of future. But that's the thing, is that what you will be gaining is access to the full humanity you never actually knew you had.

And it doesn't seem like there's a price on that yet. But for me, I think it's more important to actually have that more balanced type of way of being human than what is happening now.

And another thing I would ask people to really consider is, as you're moving toward that direction, whether you're a vegan or not, is to intervene, you know, when you know something's happening. And this depends on what your role is-- especially if you're an organization, you have to do in a way, of course, that is the least amount of risk. But then you can also ask yourself, what type of risk could it mean?

Does it mean that you're going to lose your job? Or does it just mean that you might not get promoted that year? Take risks. Take chances when you know that the outcome will actually be racial equity. And that's the thing is that sometimes we get so cozy with the comforts that have been afforded to us because of unearned privileges that we fail to understand that when we put some of those comforts at risk that we're still-- at the end of the day, even though we may have less comforts, our safety is still not compromised. You know? Our future is still not really that compromised.

So I think those are the things that I get people to do is just to-- I don't like the word brave. Be more brave and courageous. And like you have to. Like that's the thing. If you're looking forward to that equitable future, you can't be neutral.

Right.

And don't think-- don't think it has to be some super grand thing. Something small. If you notice something at work and like, you know what, I noticed that-- a lot of-- I had mentioned this in my leadership thing. I noticed that most of the women of color here, they have kids. You know? And some of them seem to be struggling. So can we actually look at our-- can we look at payment? Can we look at parenting support? Do we understand that data? Maybe we should see how we can support this particular demographic?

Don't be scared to say something. Say something. You know? Because I think that's the thing is that a lot of people are bystanders when they should be upstanders. And that's the thing.

And people don't think that something so quote unquote "small"-- I love listening to stories of hearing how something small created a huge avalanche of good change. It took one person at work when they first did that. And now everybody, you know, now we do pay equity. And we realized, you know, that we could afford the adjustment. And it made everyone feel like they belonged. And it created us-- it created a way for us to recruit and retain more diverse employees that actually could help us figure out all these other problems that made the future better. Like it's just-- yeah.

So I say to people, don't expect that you're going to make some huge monumental change. It's the tiny things that become the big things.

Right.

Yeah, and I think it's just like pushing through those discomforts and challenging yourselves with the discomfort of what it means to kind of lose-- quote unquote "lose" the privilege of being part of an oppressive system. Versus, you know, the-- I don't like the word privilege, but being more harmonious and more fully human, or spirit, however you want to say, in a different type of system. That you can thrive and grow with other people.

And, you know, putting those steps in place where it means that you go beyond just reading books. But like I said, doing those actions. Not just reading about the reports that, OK, I read about incarceration is high in the United States. So how is this affecting my community locally? What are we doing? You know?

Actually, I'm going to check in with the deputy and Sheriff. I actually am wondering, do we pull people of color over more than white people here? And if that is a problem, then how can I say that I'm not going to vote for this Sheriff or deputy the next time around unless they can ensure that. That's what it takes. Like you need to make those-- it seems small, but that's what we need to do.

You know, with stores that provide vegan-- you know, your favorite vegan restaurant. I mean, are they-- how are the waitstaff being checked? Look at the way things are. Does it get darker the further back you go into the kitchen? Right?

So in terms of people of color who work there, how are they being treated? Ask those questions. And if it's not happening-- I don't care if it's your favorite restaurant and you don't want to disrupt things so you can keep on getting your food. Say something, do something. You know, advocate. If you're in a position to advocate, that's what you need to do.

I think one of the biggest myths that we've been taught in the United States is that one person can't change anything, so whatever. Or you need some type of high leading guru to make change. No, you're the change. So do it. Do it. Check in with your favorite vegan commodities company. Are they focused on racial equity? Are they making those changes? What are they doing?

Are they sourcing in a way-- like I said, are they sourcing their almonds for their almond yogurt from incarcerated laborers or, you know, migrant laborers who are under the worst conditions. Ask. And if you ask, and then people that you know who are interested in buying the same things, you know, gather together as a community. Hold those companies accountable.

As much as I cannot stand capitalism the way it is, there is still, you know-- there is a lot to be said in terms of holding those companies accountable and saying, you know, we're not going to buy your product, or we're going to boycott this or expose you until you do that. Use that if you have the financial purchasing power to do that.

Check it. Ask. It's great that they use biodegradable wrappers and, you know, they're all solar-powered. But how-- what are their policies looking like? Are their internal folks of color and other marginalized groups? And then did they just open up shop in a place that's already gentrified? Just ask those questions.

You need to hold those organizations accountable. Maybe they don't mean it, but they're not going to know unless you tell them. I think that's so vital and critical. Maybe they won't respond to you the first, fifth or 10th time, but just keep on doing it.

My thing is, don't hold on so much to what you want the outcome to be. Do it because it's right. Do it because it's moral.

Mhm.

Like there are plenty of people-- like I can't tell you how many times I've tried something. I was frustrated. Well, they didn't listen the first time. They didn't do it, so I'm going to give up. But if you can shift and think, well, actually, I'm doing it because it's the just thing to do. And I cannot control the outcome.

Right.

At least I'm doing it. Who knows? You don't know how your ripple effect will be? You may not even see that effect in your lifetime, but be that ripple. It starts off with being a ripple.

And that's what-- if you want to start making those changes, you want to see anti-racism in action, it starts now with you as the ripple.

And people understand ripples. Like you drop the pebble in the ocean and the way it, like-- that's amazing, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that I've been-- that I think about that I wanted to ask you is, I think there is a lot of conversation about how we embody anti-racism going forward and these changes people are making going forward.

But I wonder-- and you may not have the answer to this or whatever, but I'm just kind of curious about your perspective-- how much you think there is a need for, as you mentioned, earlier, a truth and reconciliation process kind of to some degree? Of where we're acknowledging the harms of the past.

Because I think there are some ways in which people are like, OK let's move forward. And let's, you know, embrace these changes. But it's like, do we need to talk about what has been happening in the past, and what hasn't been done, and what the consequences of that have been? Do you feel like that's an important part of the process?

And maybe like what you think that that might look like if you do, or if you don't. Just kind of your perspective.

You know, I think it is important. Because-- I didn't realize this until I really started. And I'm not a formally educated expert on this. But the book In My Grandmother's Hands-- hope I got that right. And it's really about the trauma of racism. And not just for black people, like everybody in the United States. The trauma informed way of understanding-- and really, it's hard to move forward when you don't recognize not just history, but trauma is-- what's it called, transgenerational trauma. Genetic trauma, all that stuff. So it's in the body. So you can't not talk about it.

I think if you can shift from it being something that's esoteric-- I put that in quotations because of allopathic medicine always needing certain ways of factual information to prove why they're going to do or not do something. I think that's important.

I think that part is so important. Because a lot of people, especially white people, really don't understand the somatic, the trauma, how they're even basing certain decisions that take away from racial equity on an unconscious level because they haven't-- they're not aware of that trauma. They're not aware of all of that.

So I think it's hard to move forward when you can't even read your body and how it's been impacted. Vitally important. We just have to figure out, how do we do it? And it's still new to me. I'm trying to figure it out. But In My Grandmother's Hands is a book that's doing very well where it's really focusing on a lot of that. More of a trauma-informed way of really understanding how racism has impacted everybody.

Like the way it's in the body and-- it's just-- it's so deep. So I think it's hard to move forward-- like Sarkofa. Like you can't move forward without understanding the past on every level, on every level. Including the psych-- the historically-- you know, the psychic--

That's where I like Frantz Fanon's work, the Algerian psychoanalyst. I think he's the only black one during French Algerian colonization really understanding the trauma of being colonized, but the trauma that the colonizer gave to themselves.

Mhm.

This was like 70 years ago. Like on point, to even work for today. It's hard to move forward. And what do we look like as we move forward if you don't understand that psychoanalytical piece? And not just like all in the brain and body. But then, how do we turn that into action?

Yes.

Yeah. So totally, yeah. But I don't know yet what it looks like. I think the whole thing is still new. In tandem with the United States still not having that national reconciliation and healing.

Because I think healing, for a lot of people, is just too wishy-washy. What's the point? I want pragmatic results and steps, right?

Right.

Business as usual. So I think there's just a lot of overlap because of the taboo nature of-- still talking about psychic mental health and trauma. But it has to go that direction. I don't see any other way.

But the way people respond-- I mean, even if it's not race. But most of us respond in a reactive way to most things based on traumas and triggers. So why would race be any different, right?

And a lot of it is, in the formative years, from ages 0 to 6, you learn how to respond to certain situations. And if you have some-- it's just deep, right? So I think we need to go there.

Yeah.

I don't know what it's going to look like, but we need to go there. And organizations and companies actually have to be structurally prepared if they're going to go the route of racial equity and understanding the traumas and triggers, that's got to happen for everybody.

Mhm. Right.

That's the thing. Yeah. Because all that anger and screaming at each other over the internet. I'm like, something deep is happening. I think there's lots of trauma and all this stuff. You know, because-- you know.

A lot of people don't realize that. My anger, hateful, vitriolic response is actually grief, right? So people don't even know how to read that. So how do you deal with that and move.

But it's almost 1:30.

Yeah. But thank you so much for sharing your perspective on that. I think it's really important. And yes, we are coming to the end of our time. So I just wanted to give you an opportunity at this point to share any last message that you want to share with people and just let people know where they can find out more about you and your work to stay connected after this conversation.

Yeah, so I'm working on my book Seeds of Sankofa, which you know of. I have my book, Sistah Vegan, which was the anthology of black women voices that came out on 2010. And we have our 10 year anniversary right now.

So Lantern Books is going to republish it with some updates and an updated preface from me. And what's actually really important about it is that-- I was ignorant, I'm just going to lay it out there. When I said female, you know, when I first proposed the book in 2008, I didn't know that there's a difference between biological sex assigned and gender in terms of labels. So I was using female and women interchangeably. Then I got schooled on that, so the title will be changed to Black Woman Vegans.

To acknowledge that it'll be talking about gender. And so that comes out in the fall. And then, you know, if you-- just like what you hear about what I'm talking about in terms of more intersectional holistic approaches to racial equity. Whether you're individual who wants coaching through this, whether you're vegan or not, or you're an organization, or a company, you know, you can contact me at [email protected]. S as in Sam, I, S as in Sam, T as in Tom, A, H, V as in Victor, E as in Egg, G as in Girl, A as in Apple, N as in Nancy at gmail.com to contact me.

And I'm also giving a webinar again that's focused on racial inclusion in a plant based food sector. So I gave it last year and it did really well. I'm giving again on September 26th. It's a Saturday. So if you're interested in that, you can contact me. I have individual rates and organization rates. And if you can't afford it, I do scholarships.

[CHILD SCREAMING]

So I'm sorry about that. I have a three-year-old who is screaming for me.

It's OK.

So contact me. Or if you're interested in anything-- I say this a lot. I want people to contact me and engage with me about the work I'm doing and share feedback. Because that's how I grow.

Right.

I actually don't get a lot of people contacting me after. So if I don't respond, it's because I have four kids. I'm trying to home school them and run a business. But I will respond.

So please do reach out to me. I don't work for free. So if you want me to do like consulting work. I'll get long emails-- I have to say, primarily from white people. Like, I know you're busy but can you-- and then like this list of stuff. I'm like, I don't-- I don't work for free!

So if you want me in a consulting capacity or training capacity, these are my fees. So I'm just going to be straight up on that.

But I am offering right now mentorship for BIPOCs-- Black Indigenous People of Color. Over the last three months, a lot of people have been writing me saying they just really-- they want to talk to me, they need support because of racial battle fatigue.

Right.

I'm doing that pro bono. Like that's what I do. That's what we do as a community. So I don't charge for that. So I've been doing that. So if you feel like, oh my gosh, I really need emotional support but also professional support, and you're a black indigenous person of color, I've been doing that.

And so far, it's been primarily women and femme and non-binary people of color who have been contacting me. And we're just talking and just supporting each other. So that's really important. OK?

And I'm on Marco Polo if you want to do that. Or just like regular Google Meet.

Awesome. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much again for your work, for your time, for the conversation, of course. And I mean, I think your ongoing presence and scholarship has really propelled this movement forward in meaningful and necessary ways.

So we're really grateful for you sharing this time with us. And especially, I know you have your kids that are wanting your attention. So thank you for that.

And just to wrap up, to our audience, as always, thank you all so much for joining us and for your support. I really encourage you to look more into Dr. Harper, to reach out in the ways that she mentioned. And if you haven't already, visit our website, farmsanctuary.org. You'll find more information there about our next Sanctuary Speakers series event.

So that does it for our conversation today. Thank you all so much for tuning in. Stay healthy and safe out there, please.

Bye.

Bye. Thanks, everyone.

Hello, everyone. My name is Nzinga Young. And I'm the senior manager of events and experience here at Farm Sanctuary. It's my pleasure to welcome you to Sanctuary Speaker Series.

Today, we have the honor of interviewing New York Times best-selling author, internationally recognized speaker, and founding member and fellow of the American College of Lifestyle Medicine, Dr. Michael Greger. Dr. Greger has lectured at the conference on world affairs, testified before Congress, and was invited as an expert witness in the defense of Oprah Winfrey in the infamous meat defamation trial. He's a graduate of Cornell University's School of Agriculture and Tufts University School of Medicine.

Three of his recent books, How Not to Die, How Not to Die a Cookbook, and How Not to Diet, all became instant bestsellers. The proceeds he receives from the sales of his latest book, How to Survive a Pandemic will all go to charity. Dr. Greger will be interviewed by Farm Sanctuary board secretary Nirva Patel, former corporate lawyer and passionate advocate for animal rights.

Most recently, she served as an executive producer of the Game Changers documentary, an evidence-based film featuring elite, plant-based athletes. Nirva earned a BS in biomedical engineering from Boston University, a JD from the New England School of Law, and is currently a candidate for the master's in animal law and public policy at Tufts University. It's my pleasure to introduce Dr. Greger and Nirva Patel.

It's an honor to meet you, Dr. Greger. We appreciate the time that you took out of your day for us at Farm Sanctuary. My name is Nirva Patel. I'm a board member. And I'm also studying at Tufts University in the Center for Animal Law and Public Policy. And it's so interesting that you were also a medical student there.

Indeed.

So something in common. I enjoyed reading your book How Not to Die and loved learning about the incredible benefits of some of the foods I grew up with like amla and saffron. I had no idea how amazing they are for us. So thank you for that.

Absolutely.

Great. So if you don't mind, I'd like to get started.

Let's do it.

All right, we hear you played a major role in growing our bulk mail campaign, which has expanded into our current direct mail campaign, which, to date, will bring over $1 and 1/2 million this year. We now do six acquisition appeals each year and reach out to 400,000 new prospects with each appeal. Our total direct marketing budget is projected to be over $5 million next year. Can you talk about your time at Farm Sanctuary when you were a volunteer there many years ago?

Oh, yeah. My God, that's a blast from the past. I was-- what was my title? Infectious disease coordinator or something. At the time, when was this, like late '80s, bovine spongiform encephalopathy, mad cow disease was raging. And I was at the ag school, the agriculture school at Cornell. And I had access to the veterinary library and the ag school and the ag library.

And so I started doing research on behalf of Farm Sanctuary to learn more about these so-called prion diseases, which this was before the Nobel Prize in medicine was awarded for the discovery of prions. And so they thought it was a so-called slow virus and all these interesting theories. And so as a biophysics major, I nerded out over mad cow disease.

And Farm Sanctuary saw some of my work and wanted-- I talked about how risky downed animals were, so animals too sick or injured to even stand, being funneled into the food supply. And we had no idea. Maybe they're down. Yeah, maybe they have a broken leg. But maybe they have a broken leg because they have neurological disease and fell over.

And so they realized that there was this-- so for years, Farm Sanctuary was trying to get the Down Animal Protection Act passed to make sure these animals are euthanized and not transported to slaughter, often with chains, very inhumane, and could not get any traction. People were caring about their cats and dogs but just didn't-- it just it didn't. At least the politicians weren't concerned about it.

But then so they said, wait a second. There's this human health argument too. It's actually not safe to be eating animals that are too sick or injured to even stand and walk on their own volition.

And so they needed kind of an expert. And I had testified in defense of Oprah Winfrey in the infamous meat defamation trial. And so I was-- so I wrote a bunch of papers for Farm Sanctuary. And what happened? The good news is that that's what did it.

And it's kind of sad the kind of selfish reasons like we got the Down Animal Protection Act passed but only after there was this kind of human implication. But hey, doesn't matter. The cows don't care either way. And I don't care either way as long as people are healthier. So yeah. Yeah, that was a lot of fun.

That's amazing. Thank you. You talk about primordial prevention that you describe as a strategy to prevent whole societies from experiencing epidemics of chronic disease risk factors. With respect to how COVID has manifested in the United States compared to other countries, there's a theory that the United States, among other reasons, suffered the most because we were already experiencing a health epidemic. Do you think that we would have been better off if we all had followed a whole foods, plant-based diet?

Well, consider the risk factors for a severe course of COVID-19, obesity, heart disease, Type II diabetes, and high blood pressure, all of which can prevented, arrested, or even reversed with a plant-based diet and lifestyle. So I mean, look, you don't even have to be obese. Even just being overweight, having a BMI of 28 puts you at nearly five times the risk of suffering a severe COVID-19 course. The average BMI in the United States, 29. So even being skinnier than the average American, you can still have so much excess body fat that it puts you at significantly higher risk. And so that's why this is the time to take better care of yourself. Start cleaning out your pantry to protect yourself, not only from chronic disease risk in the future, but infectious disease risks right here now.

Absolutely. You were a vegetarian in college but eventually went vegan. What influenced your transition?

Well, it was all-- I mean, the whole story really goes back to my childhood with my grandmother. My grandmother was-- I was just a kid. My grandmother was basically sent home in a wheelchair to die, diagnosed with end-stage heart disease. She already had so many bypass surgeries, basically run out of plumbing at some point. Confined to a wheelchair, crushing chest pain. Her life was over at age 65.

But then she heard about this guy Nathan Pritikin, one of our early lifestyle medicine pioneers. And what happened next is actually detailed in Pritikin's biography. He talks about Frances Greger as one of the death's door patients.

And they wheeled here in, and she walked out. Though she was given a medical death sentence at age 65, thanks to a healthy diet, was able to enjoy another 31 years on this planet until age 96 to continue to enjoy her six grandkids, including me. So that's why I went into medicine, why I practice lifestyle medicine, why I started nutritionfacts.org, why I wrote the book How Not to Die, why all the proceeds I receive from the sale of my books are all donated directly to charity. I just want to do for everyone's family what Pritikin did for my family.

Wow.

From a personal health standpoint, as a kid, I didn't realize how revolutionary what happened to my grandmother was. At the time, we didn't think heart disease was reversible, right? We didn't used to think like Type II diabetes was reversible either. And so that's what Pritikin first showed.

But for me as a kid, grandma went to the doctor and got better. That's what you're supposed to do. You go to the doctor. You get better. Like it didn't occur to me. So it didn't strike me really to change my habits at the time.

Only 1990 when Dr. Dean Ornish published his lifestyle heart trial proving-- some call it quantitative agiongraphy-- that indeed heart disease can be reversed, arteries opened up without drugs, without surgery. And so essentially, the cure to our number one killer of men and women was a plant-based diet and lifestyle program. And I was like, wow. What else do you need?

Number one killer, number one reason me and all my loved ones are going to die, there's only one diet ever been proven to reverse the progression. Well, sign me up. And so that's what really did it.

Later, with my work with Farm Sanctuary, I realized there was all these other benefits, right? I think once you stop eating animals for whatever reason, like you do for the climate or you do it for workers' rights or whatever reason you choose, then you don't have your defenses up. And you're willing to hear, to open your mind, so look, someone sends you some horrible slaughterhouse video. If you're a meat eater, you're not going to watch the video, right?

But who doesn't want to be told what they're doing is good? You're a good person, right? And so it's like, oh, there's another reason the meat industry is bad. Let me see.

And so then, I was more open to the animal suffering component too and realized that the food choices I made that prevent human suffering, also produced nonhuman, reduced nonhuman suffering too. So it's like, and now look the planet it's like a win-win-win from all sides. And so it feels good to-- even though my primary concern as a physician is human health. But hey, if it has all these knock-on benefits, all the better.

Right. And there is this theory that, when we look at all of the world's problems, we should look at them with a one heath approach and that we should be identifying the environment to include animals and humans rather than just climate change. So I hear what you're saying. As a doctor, can you easily tell if a person eats a plant-based diet by looking at them or running a test?

The average American is overweight, nearly obese. The average vegan is optimal weight. And so by looking at somebody, you can say, oh, that's probably someone who's been vegan for a long time or eating healthy for a long time or a marathon runner or something.

I mean, but obviously, it's a bell curve. And people are all over the place. But I mean, there's actually tests that you can do toenail clippings. And you can actually find out what people are eating, which are important for biomarker studies.

If you put people on a vegan diet, you want to make sure. And then you get some results at the other end. You want to make sure, well, did they actually stick with it? And so there are biomarker tests you can do. You can take someone's urine and actually tell based on all the little metabolites in the bloodstream, tell what they fall into. And in terms of life lifelong vegans, there hasn't been many studies on lifelong vegans. So we don't really know in terms of what their health outcomes will be.

In your professional opinion, and I know that we have this argument all the time in the Indian community, if you're raised as a vegan or a vegetarian, you will not be as tall as the children who consume milk. And does height have anything to do with diet, especially a vegan diet?

Well, so basically, the Adventist study, vegetarian children were actually about an inch taller on average. So I mean, not that, I mean, it doesn't really matter. But yeah. No. No, there does not appear to be any differential in height. But this is talking about parts of the world where there isn't food insecurity. So there certainly can be growth stunting on any kind of diet if there's insufficient nutrition.

Right. OK. Thank you. How Not to Diet came out in December of last year. How were you able to write How to Survive a Pandemic, which is a 600-page book, so quickly?

Well, so I was doing my book tour. I had a 200-city book tour of How Not to Diet. I only got to about 50 cities before the whole world came crashing down. But that just gave me an opportunity to write the next book.

And if you remember, I have this infectious disease background with mad cow. And I did my postgraduate work in public health hospital, did a lot of HIV work. And so I mean, I had already written about pandemics. I've already written about it. But just no one paid it any attention.

But finally, now people are paying attention. So I said, this is the time. So quick. And so publisher was really put on all the-- it was like Operation Warp Speed but not for vaccines, but for the book.

OK. Right. Right. Got it. Well, congratulations. I know you've been writing a lot. But how has this pandemic been for you as a medical doctor? And also, how has it been for your family?

Well, so for me, it was kind of a blessing in disguise. I kind of overextended myself on the tour and was looking forward to another 10 months or eight months and not sure I could really pull it off. I was doing multiple cities on single days. It was really quite exhausting.

So all of a sudden, I got this reprieve. And I got to write a whole new book. And so I was able to use that time. And I'm just so privileged to be able to have the kind of freedom to be able to work from home and not expose myself. And thankfully, my family is too. And so I realize that's certainly not the case everywhere. And so I just count my blessings.

It's good to hear you're all well. You mentioned a few household items that are helpful for cleaning surfaces and sanitizing hands. What are some things we should all have in our pandemic preparedness arsenal?

Oh, yeah. There's a pandemic preparedness kind of checklist for mostly for the next pandemic. So right now, grocery shelves are still being restocked. I mean, this is a very mild pandemic.

And so but it's important to fulfill the checklist. For all of a sudden, what if, all of a sudden, grocery store supply chains completely break down? And what if doctors aren't showing up to work? And what if the electricity goes Out and what if, all of a sudden, water purification goes out?

These are all not unlikely scenarios with some of these bird flu viruses circulating now, 100 times deadlier. In fact, the CDC predicts the next pandemic, most likely, will be this H7N9 bird flu pathogen, 100 times deadlier. And so you could just imagine what kind of devastation that would wreak.

And so yeah, so there's this whole checklist in How to Survive a Pandemic and critically important to do. But right now, you should be able to get anything. Nothing you have to particularly stock up on.

And for this particular pathogen, surfaces are not a primary means of transmission. So early on in the pandemic, we really didn't know. And so people were disinfecting delivering food and groceries. But that does not appear to be necessary.

It's primarily airborne transmission through both respiratory droplets and really tiny droplets that kind of float in the air. And so the way to not get this virus is for the virus not to get to you. And that is distance, distance, distance, staying away from other people as much as possible. Particularly, you want to stay away from prolonged periods indoors. Crowded, confined spaces with poor ventilation, those would be the riskiest places that you want to stay out of.

The quarantine itself has come with its own health risks. People are often indoors for days at a time engaging in less physical activity and consuming more calories. What are some ways we can all stay healthy and active as we quarantine?

So look, this is the time to clean out your pantry. I mean, now you're no longer walking by the donut shop every day. And your kids aren't getting cupcake celebrations. And there isn't a bowl of candy on your coworker's desk.

And you have control over your environment, maybe for the first time in your adult life, often for many people. And so look, you can have no junk in the house. We have a no junk in the house rule. If you get hungry enough, you're going to eat that apple just because there's nothing else there.

There's no bags of chips. There's no cookies. Look. There's just healthy food. And so that's how. Because then you don't need willpower. You just you get hungry, you eat. And so that's really the best way to do it.

There's all sorts of things you can do indoors. I, unfortunately, am in transit now, and so don't have a treadmill with me. But you can use a treadmill desk. And you can get work done, phone calls, watch TV, whatever, getting a little movement in throughout the day.

Great. Common conditions we see in birds rescued from factory farms are reproductive cancer, impacted eggs, external and internal parasites, upper respiratory infections, feather loss, and a number of other crippling conditions due to inadequate nutrition and overpacked cages. Could you explain how the confined, overcrowded, and stressful conditions in factory farm animals create a dangerous environment for the spread of viruses?

And we overcrowd tens of thousands of animals in these cramped, filthy, football field sized sheds beak to beak or snout to snout atop their own waste. This is just a breeding ground for disease. Just the sheer numbers of animals, the overcrowding, the stress, crippling their immune systems. The ammonia from the decomposing waste burning their lungs. Lack of fresh air and lack of sunlight. Put all these factors together, we really have this kind of a perfect storm environment for the emergency spread of these so-called super strains of influenza. The bottom line is that it's not worth risking the lives of millions of people for the sake of cheaper chicken.

Has the medical profession changed in recent years? Are doctors becoming more aware of the impacts of our food choices?

There's tremendous strides happening, not only throughout society. I mean, McDonald's announcing they're going to have a plant-based meat option. The writing is certainly on the wall with major dairies declaring bankruptcy because of this constellation of new consumer choices in the dairy aisle. Same thing's happening in the meat aisle, really tremendous progress being made in terms of transitioning over to more plant-based options.

And we're seeing the same kind of recognition within the medical profession. One of the fastest growing specialties is lifestyle medicine. So I encourage any physicians out there to join the American College of Lifestyle Medicine. And so that's using lifestyle approaches like diet and exercise not only to prevent disease but to treat, potentially reverse it as well.

And so I mean, it's every year, it gets bigger and bigger, the conferences. And sadly, this year had to be all virtual. I miss all my friends there. But yeah, there is thousands of practitioners across the country that are opening entire clinics devoted to lifestyle medicine.

Great. And going back to the stress of these contained, overcrowded animals, it must impact their stress and cortisol levels. Does that then impact the quality of the food and the health of people consuming these overstressed flesh?

So if you look at the Pew commission on industrial farming on production, they're very clear that these extreme confinement practices, like these battery cages for egg-laying hens or gestation crates for pregnant pigs, have adverse human health consequences. And indeed, even something like providing straw bedding for pigs just so they don't have the immunosuppressive stress of lying on bare concrete their whole lives significantly decreases swine flu transmission rates. So the same kind of conditions, I mean, these animals are the ones that could use a little social distancing. They need a little breathing room themselves. So the same kind of conditions that foster the growth of diseases among the animals can also become so-called zoonotic pathogens and jump from animals to humans. That's why the way we treat animals can have global public health implications.

A major issue our caregivers experience is the negative impact from antibiotic resistant bacteria. How is the widespread use of antibiotics in factory farming affecting animals? And how does this also affect humans and the environment?

That's really a critical issue in medicine is the dramatic growth in multidrug resistant bacteria. And so I mean, we have these miracle drugs, antibiotics, and we don't-- a scraped knee is no longer a mortal wound. We can actually do surgery now, cut people open without people dying from infections. And we take these things for granted.

But we are headed towards a postantibiotic world if we do not stop the overuse of antibiotics. That happens not only in medicine. But most antibiotics sold the United States aren't actually given to people. They are given to animals who aren't even sick. They're not even treating the disease but to promote growth and prevent diseases such as stressful, unhygienic, crowded environment.

What that does is it selects for these bacteria that are resistant. Kills up to 99% of the bacteria. But the 1% that's resistant then spreads, grows, and then can jump to us not only from those animal products themselves. So for example, antibiotic resistant bacteria on chicken causing urinary tract infections in women that are resistant to first-line antibiotics. But manure runoff can get on vegetables, right?

So it's not like the people out there can be like, oh, I don't have to worry about that issue because I don't eat those kind of products. No. It affects everybody. You can be infected from someone who eats meat and gets secondarily infected even without eating any of those parts. So this is something. So reform animal agriculture is critical regardless of what you eat, even if it's for your own selfish benefit of the health of your family.

That's very interesting. Despite the challenges of this year, and we know we've had many, is there anything about the COVID-19 pandemic that gives you hope for the future?

Well, the silver lining is that this could be the dry run we needed, the fire drill to wake us from our complacency and reform the food system before it's too late. Take the advice of the American Public Health Association, the largest and oldest association of public health professionals in the world who declared no more factory farms. They're calling for a moratorium on factory farms. And they're doing it because they want to protect the public's health.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time. Your insights are inspiring a movement. They're igniting young minds and keeping us all very healthy. Thank you. And I look forward to when our paths cross again. I appreciate all of your time.

Absolutely. Any time. Looking forward to helping out in the future.

OK, great. Thank you. Bye.

Bye.

To hear more from Dr. Greger, please visit nutritionfacts.org to view videos of more than 2,000 health topics with new videos and articles uploaded almost daily. We wish you and your families the best this holiday season and look forward to having you again at our next Sanctuary Speaker Series.